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welcome to the beat. i'm ari melber. with all the trial news we have been covering, the top story is political news that will help decide the election. because it usually does. today, president biden and donald trump both agreed to do two new presidential debates. the first coming next month. capping weeks of posturing and negotiation. that breakthrough came today as the biden campaign took control of things with a plan that was months in the making. biden using this video to publicly challenge trump. with two partners on board. abc and cnn. if a debate starting next month sounds different than usual, earlier than usual, it is. this will now be the earliest general election campaign debate ever. and that matters actually not only for people tuning in and

paying attention, but also for the political strategy at play. which we will get into right now. the times reporting this is what biden wants for a couple of reasons. democrats think early voting helps them more than the other side. i can't tell you about the future but i can tell you the reporting suggesting this was a strategic move for biden because they think that will be true again this year. and they definitely dominated in early voting in 2020 when they defeated and ousted then president trump. the highly watched debates tend to mobilize people. just about everyone knows that. democrats are thinking that jump starting the general election season early will be good for biden. they hope it will benefit them because instead of this abstract discussion about joe biden which as you know includes talk about his age or how he looks or how he sounds which is kind of an incumbent focused view. the times and other outlets suggesting they think the side by side, his age to trump's age? his presidency to trump on

trial? that direct contrast which hasn't kicked in for people outside of news junkies, that will help them. i'll tell you something else. this new development today which no one knew was coming. biden dropped the video and it came into focus quickly. it opens the window on something interesting. it suggests how joe biden who is the oldest president ever, that's a numerical fact running against one of the oldest challengers ever. donald trump. they are both older. but, it shows how biden is actually still very open to brand new strategies even that break tradition. a june debate means trump will be on face to pace a verdict and a debate in the same month. and that could make for some unusual news cycles to say the least. it could push against trump or for him if he does come off new york prosecutors failing to convict him. so, there is a lot to think through here. but when you take 2020, the history, what we have learned,

remember, those were debates where joe biden and trump clashed a lot. but people really got a closeup of the comparison and it was what led to biden beating an incumbent president which is never easy to do. let's take a look at 2020. >> we handed him a blooming economy. he blooming. >> joe. i ran because of you. i ran because of barack obama. because you did a poor job. >> anyone who is responsible for that many deaths should not remain as president of the united states of america. >> we can't lock ourselves up in a basement like joe does. >> one of the most racist presidents we have had in modern history. >> i am the least racist person. >> i'm not going to answer the question. the question is. will you shut up, man. >> then president trump did not exactly shut up, man. but that moment encanneslated something then. and remember, it worked for biden them. it also shows why there is such wrangling over these debates

because they have new rules that the biden campaign has been victorious on that will limit both the crowd and the interruption aspects which donald trump used not so much to win the debate on its own terms but to hijack it or short circuit it. that's just about observation. if you are a super trump fan, you might say great. if you were a biden fan or someone trying to listen to both sides you might think gosh, this got got really out of control. some more facts for you tonight. the debates will be in atlanta. the end of june. then in september. that first debate will not have a studio audience. the rules and the formatt bradleyers a lot. the biden campaign took the lead here. edge yeared this to some degree. got trump on board. without the fans he loves to appeal to in the room.

this bypasses the bipartisan commission that has organized these debates for many, many decades. it ends that tradition. as with other washington traditions, other people invest in them. they say oh, we can't change this. and other people say anything new is a risk. it is a type of risk to do this without the commission and its structural historical advantages. but clearly, the biden campaign think this is the better way to go and we should note, the reporting is. and there's letters to this effect, they talked to the commission about trying to do other things and they viewed it as an unwilling collaborative partner. as we have seen this president deal with other institutions, they have had a whole running back and forth with the new york times and the commission. there are a lot of people around biden trying to send a message to the washington powers that be. they don't need you. they don't need you like they used to. and they will cut you out if they have to. as for what trump is up to, you

avoid debates. there was a presidential debate tradition. but in senate races around the country, this is done more ad hoc. if you are up 10 points and you are the incumbent, you skip debates. donald trump was the former president runing in his primary and knew he didn't need debates. they only had a downside for him. remember, we lived through it. trump didn't do any debates against the republican rivals in the primaries. the broader context here is a matchup that has problems for both sides. again, when you are the incumbent president, you get a coverage, and scrutiny. but for all the discussion of joe biden and the economy and the mideast and the international problems, a lot of valid criticisms, politics are he doesn't want to just be assessed only on his own record all year. when the question is always in life and in politics compared

to what? the truth is i just mentioned some of the factors about why there is not great enthusiasm for joe biden. but there actually isn't much enthusiasm for either of these candidates. both of whom have been in the white house and are well known by voters. we have seen for many months most americans actually don't want this rematch at all. and trump who has now been running unopposed since he became the presumptive nominee of his party is still losing. this is just among people who show up in republican primaries. some of them are open and closed but you see the numbers. since nikki haley dropped out, it is not 5%, 6%, 7%. it is double digits. big red. pennsylvania, 17%. arizona, 20%. those are people showing up to republican primaries and choosing something other than trump. if he only gets 80% of those

kind of republican votes, in the general, he will lose. but there's a long way to november. the significant share of republicans basically are still trying to figure out whether this is what they want to go with. remember, i is a id this before. if you are saying okay, ari, don't people know these are the only choices? in the mayor parties? don't people see this is what we are dealing with? short answer is no. not everyone follows this closely. not everyone remembers when nikki haley dropped out. not everyone is counting down the months to november like we might in our news room. and so, as the choices become clear, republicans say the numbers you see on your screen will go down. the anti-trump vote will go away. but the biden side of this, the reason they want the other debates is they think his lackluster approval numbers are not great, will go up when compared to trump. compared to the guy on trial. compared to the guy if you follow the news saying things

that are literally more autocratic and dictator than anything he has said. the president is making his appearances while trump has been in the trial four days a week. senator mitt romney who knows about the debate stuff, he was asked about this today. i told you this all broke today. here is what he said about how it might go. >> the image that. cos to mind is those two old guys on the muppets that sat in the balcony. that comes to mind. but i think there will be a huge audience for these debates. >> as the old saying goes, wakka, wacka, wakka. we do know the old muppets and the candidates. nothing wrong with being old. it usually just means you are alive and have experience. and if there is going to be a giant voting block that only wants candidates under 40 for president, they will just be

disappointed. these are the current choices of the two parties. we live in a two party system. if you watch this program, you may know we have covered some of the problems with the two party system and why there should be two choices and we have had candidates on from third and other parties but the numbers have not demonstrated anything like a perot level factor and he didn't win either. the news when it comes to debates. the muppets had a large audience and the debates tend to have a larger one. and our polarized era where people go to different corners of the internet and watch didn't tv channels and it is true up to a point. there are certain big events in sports and politics that do bring the whole country back together. maybe not agreeing together. but watching something together. they used to call it the mono culture when everybody listens to the same beatles albums. when you talk about it, you are discussing the same album

rather than one version's qanon lie about the album. and someone else actually listening to the album. so that is what the super bowl is like. and if you look at 2020, the first debate, that's what it was like 73 million people watching that debate itself. plus tens of millions more watching clips. that meant that 100 plus million people in a very short amount of time could actually discuss the same set of facts. imagine that, america. almost downright old fashioned in a good way. so why did the biden campaign make this move? why make it now? why are they up strategically? we have two absolute political pros with us. mark and joe. and we are back in just 90 seconds. no cap. just 90 seconds. no cap.

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but st. jude has gotten us through it. st. jude is hope for every child diagnosed with cancer because the research is being shared all over the world. donald trump lost two debates to me in 2020. since then he hasn't shown up for a debate. now he is acting like he won't debate me again. make my day, i hear you are free on wednesdays. >> that is the one day when donald trump's criminal trial is not in session. free on wednesdays is the new trial burn. it only works if you are running against someone facing a criminal trial. no other presidential candidate has ever done this. run during a trial. now, we have with us two pros in this whole landscape of

presidential politics and debates. joe and jim. cocreator of show time's the circus. and joe i try to be fair. i have had trump lawyers on this week. i have had biden officials. i try to be fair but i have to say, mark has a better hat on than you. >> he does. and i would agree with that. >> mark, this both matters for the reasons i said. it is one of the only times where the whole country sees the same thing in politics. how rare is that? it did help biden last time. no idea who it will help this time. speak to us about the aspect, and the pure politics of it. the biden folks thought the outcome is clearment they needed to do something and this is how they want to shake it up. >> this is the smartest thing the biden campaign has done yet. both strategically, tactically

on every level. it was not sustainable the notion that biden could go this whole campaign and not debate. ultimately he was going to have to. it shows weakness and problems. and what would have happened is it would have been months and months of stories of trump dodging the debate. it communicates enormous confidence and enormous strength. and by the way, as joe knows, the most important asset you can have is the perception of strength. if you are not debating it shows weakness. if you throws down the gauntlet, that showing strength and i love that it caught the trump campaign off guard. by doing this. he does it on his terms without an audience. on every level, this is a master stroke of strategy for the campaign. >> do you think they were worried that rfk might meet the

commission threshold? we had rfk on this program recently. he was very bullish on his own chances. his polling hasn't been as good as it is in his mind. but do you think that is a factor? >> absolutely. there is no question the debates are the most important time during the presidential campaign. 75million people to watch the last one. this would blow the numbers out of the water. 100million plus. it is an opportunity for somebody like rfk to get huge exposure and now he won't get it. the biden campaign strategy is just suffocate him. deny him the oxygen so i think it is a smart play. >> i think that's right. it was a really smart strategy. for the biden campaign. it shows strength and and they

had him. how could he say no? to two debates, wherever biden wanted to have them. and under whatever rules biden wanted with no audience. is second thing is i don't know if rfk would have qualified or not. mostly because forget about the percentage that you need to get to. i'm not sure he will be on enough ballots. he'll be on plenty of ballots but i'm not sure enough to win 270 electoral votes. >> i asked him about that. when he was on here, he was on about four states. he said they could get to ten immediately. they weren't at 30 or 40 at that time. in the last month. >> i still think this was about making it a binary race immediately as soon as possible. whether that, how much that impacted rfc actually impacted the decision. the biden campaign knows that they benefit from making this

trump versus biden and that contrast that you talked about, ari, that his office, through 2020, 2022, and i think in 2024. that contrast has benefited biden and democrats. the contrast between trump and maga and biden and democrats has benefited biden. and the debate in 2020, the first one in particular, i was looking at focus groups back then. and the number of women who were disappointed in trump because of his abrasiveness. the way he carried himself. and were mildly surprised. positively about biden, was remarkable. i really do think the debates really help shape that contrast. >> let me play some of that. because mark i mentioned this in our setup and i really mean it. you go on the internet which is a wonderful place to connect

and learn things. when i was growing up, we didn't have total internet saturation. and now, you can learn something about a village in africa you would never know. it's amazing. it is also just this endless pile of ignorant hate. including large parts of the internet i feel are like a book club where no one has read the book. everyone is yelling about the book they haven't read. with donald trump and joe biden, you could talk to people who don't follow and they will say something based on a four or six second snippet. and they have this view of him. it is my job to talk and listen to people. can he even walk? i hear that. that is their perception. yes he can. and it is a hard grueling job. he has been traveling all over the country.

i think it is fair the say both men are older than the usual candidate. i was with trump this week, he also can walk. neither of them look like they cannot move around and do the things they do. but in the side by side, it seemed to hurt trump last time. take a look. >> under this president, we become weaker, sicker, poorer, more divided and more violent. >> he doesn't want to say law and order because he can't because he will lose his radical left supporters. >> he said maybe we should drop a nuclear weapon on them. >> i never said that at all. >> mark? >> that's a good example of what could happen. the big question for joe biden is, is he up to the job? and fairly or unfairly, his age comes up. how competent is he. physically, mentally capable is he. well, he'll have an opportunity to show that on the stage with the other guy who is also old.

i think this could be the most consequential debate in american history. >> really? >> yes. absolutely. because there are so many questions about both of them at this point. and age an acuity is a very real question. this will be the opportunity to get out there without a net. without a note. and show whether or not you are up to the job and whether or not you have the strength and capability to stand on that stage and i think it will be, it will game set match in these debates. >> joe, we have 30 seconds. he got two different tennis references. you get 30 seconds. >> i think biden will clean his clock. because trump has set up, such, he's the one out there every day saying the guy can't walk. he can't talk. he can't do anything. he is senile. and trump can't change his tune. the same thing. these groups biden has to win

back. the haley voters. how will he say anything that atracks people to him? he will push them further away and biden will be sitting there being much stronger than trump has made him out to be. that is why i think there won't be a pass. but he will knock trump out i think. >> our producers will put up the muppets one more time. because mitt romney made this comparison. i just want to say i hope to have both of you back on this program for so many years to come you get to your own muppet. >> i aspire to be a muppet. >> i'll try. we are going off the romney reference. mitt romney made this comparison today.

it was then candidate trump who accused hillary clinton of being a puppet in 16 so there is a long debate mood of muppets and puppets. so there we are. joe and mark, good to see you guys. >> good to see you. appreciate it. we led with this big debate news. we return to the trial an ex. including a fact check. as we go to the home stretch, a break down tonight on something that has been debated everywhere. michael cohen's incriminating testimony against trump and how it balances against issues with his own record. that is who could decide this case. we have that for you tonight. being me. keep being you... and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting

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it will fail. and fail miserablely. there was notifications that came within the trump organization about herment she was going to go public with the

information. >> michael cohen telling his story in an interview on this program. now he has been tested in a different way. under oath. he is on the witness stand tomorrow under cross- examination from trump's lawyers. he is already making big headlines from his first two days testifying. >> michael cohen has testified that he is a liar. admitting he lied to congress. to the government. to the public. >> one of the most impressive things about the last two days is it does appear that cohen may have committed perjury begin. >> they were suggesting he was obsessed with donald trump. that he was left behind. and has since been on a revenge tour. >> every witness basically, you know, tarred and feathered him. >> donald trump's attorneys attempted to shred the credibility of the prosecutor's star witness. >> juries are smart. they get it. it is a lot of common sense. i just don't see how they can give his testimony, say it has the ring of truth. >> if you notice the theme

here, it is while michael cohen is a central witness, the fact he is so central is what is creating a problem. if this case in the jury's mind rises and falls with some of the key claims that cohen and only cohen has made, to corner donald trump, the case call fall apart if reasonable doubt is raised. what we know is the lawyers on trump's side said thursday they expect to spend most of the day going back at cohen. the times reports that trump's attorney struggled to land the gotcha moment. cohen kept his composure. he gave short basic answers. rarely strayed off topic. and cohen used his time to attack cohen's credibility. there is a problem in looking at this only through the lens of whether there was a knock- out blow or how composed cohen was.

many of us, you and i if you have been following the case with us have absorbed michael cohen as a person, as a speaker, and his story. the jury has been hearing about him. and they have heard as one of our witnesses, one of our experts say, he has been tarred and feathered. they have been warned about him. but what happened yesterday and what could continue to happen tomorrow is pivotal in the case. the jury learned enough information about cohen that they start thinking a little less about all the receipts against trump and a little more about this particular character and whether they believe his current version of events beyond a reasonable doubt. we are joined by former prosecutor kristi greenberg. how are you? >> great. how are you? >> last time i saw you was at the courthouse. we have heard the version the new york times said and the version i would say the more common among frankly nonlawyers

which is at times yesterday's cross was halting. was meandering. was even at times boring. and yet, you and i were just discussing in commercial breaks so why not share with everyone that you did notice some punches were landed. what did you mean by that? >> look, he had a line of argument where he talked about the fact there were requests from the prosecutors and requests from cohen's own lawyer to top talking about the case. right? and of course he has ignored them. so their argument during closing is look, the prosecutors at that table cannot control this guy. his own lawyer cannot control him. he went rogue. did they land it as solidly a punch on that as they could have? no. but they made the point and will use it on closing. other parts felt flat. the whole michael cohen is obsessed with donald trump.

isn't the whole gop obsessed with him? that they should have left to the mariah carey song. why are you so obsessed with me. >> or the m and m stan. >> you have seen the parade of people from the gop in the courtroom outside the courtroom. i don't think that landed so well. i think starting out with making it about todd and saying didn't you call me this name. who cares. i think the line of cross about monetizization, he is trying to monetize donald trump. we heard how much donald trump cares about money. he is monetizing things on his own. i don't think he landed solid punches but he set up enough lines of cross that he can then go back on those arguments on closing. >> and the jury heard the da's

side and trump's lawyers side describe michael cohen as a past liar. so that is undisputed. did mr. blanche advance anything to show he is a current liar? >> not yet. my prediction is he will do a lot better tomorrow. i think he held back the ammunition he had. and he is looking to unleash that tomorrow. so there are a few areas where this is going to come up. michael cohen said he never wanted to be donald trump's chief of staff. there is ample evidence that he did. in private messages that sdny has laid out in their papers. how much he wanted that job. howdies appointed he was when he didn't get the job. and all the things he tried to do to get the job. >> so thursday will be his chance to say you lied on tuesday and if you did lie on

tuesday about something we all remember, you wanted this white house job. that is not like where did i eat dinner a year ago. the jury will get the message. >> this is what he was upset about. this would give him a motive to change this story. the other area is his past crimes. he said on the stand, yesterday, while i never disputed the fact that i committed tax crimes. i have never disputed that fact. which is what he pled guilty to. but he has disputed that. tax crimes are 1100% inaccurate. he got up on the stand and said i didn't commit the tax evasion cross-claim and when i told the judge in the guilty plea i did.

i was lying. civil fraud trial, i didn't evade taxes and lied in the plea. now it is i never disputed i did it. i also think it is a strained argument. >> and we are not judging him at large but what the jury is learning about him as one of the final. thank you. when we come back, democrats, see speaker johnson's visit to the criminal trial as a chance to attack. to attack. ry spots. that's lawn disease. but scotts healthy plus will cure it! lawn disease? been going around. so like other people have it and it's not... pick up a bag of the new scotts turf builder healthy plus lawn food today. feed your lawn. feed it. voices of people with cidp: cidp disrupts. cidp derails. let's be honest... all: cidp sucks! voices of people with cidp: but living with cidp doesn't have to. when you sign up at shiningthroughcidp.com,

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the speaker of the house mike johnson took time away from his job governing the nation to fly to new york to make a fundamental political appearance at the trial of donald trump. he showed up. he echoed the maga attacks that donald trump wants and democrats in congress are responding. remember. they are the ones who actually helped johnson keep his job when he was facing a right wing challenge and they say that could be a one-time only get out of jail free card. with the court stunt viewed as an unprecedented and shocking action that shows how low we have sunk says some democrats and he could pay a price if they need him again. >> it is disappointing. it is just odd. it never fails to amaze us. you know, the depths at which they will go in order to bend a

knee to the former president. >> speaker johnson has changed his tune on trump himself. and the insurrection of january 6th. he also led this congressional effort to overturn presidential results and use lawsuits as a kind of cover for the coup plot that failed. remember, they didn't just want to storm the capital with maga fans. that doesn't do much. they wanted to use all of those things together and his lawsuits to try to get members of the house to actually change the outcome of the election. remember, johnson is second in line to the presidency as he walks this line. we have a big fact check on a trump claim coming up next. stay with us. ay with us.

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indicted but rather, it is something special about a conspiracy aligned against him. let's take a look at what trump mentioned. what he calls biden's doj. it is a place where if you look at this, the charges do not fall on any political lines. the jury has been sat. the doj says he took bribes in not only cash, and a luxury vehicle, but even the old school and seemingly incriminating choice to take gold bars and keep them i should say in his home according to the indictment. opening statements are beginning there. menendez pleads not guilty. and as i say about trump and other defendants, he is presumed innocent but this is his second case and there is strong evidence. the doj went forward with what

would be touchy in any administration. but they faced evidence that said they went forward prosecuting the president's son. it is on a more unusual gun charge, but that trial begins next month in june. so it doesn't mean anyone is guilty or innocent. but there is a claim that the doj has its thumb on the scale in terms of prominent members of the political parties. well, that claim like so many others that trump has vaunted out there to try to defend himself or confuse people during his trial, turns out fact check, false. i will it in a break. but we have jake back with us for a very conversation next. v we're trying to save the planet with nuggets.

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don't think we forgot. it's been busy times, but when we have time in the new cycle, we will still fall back. today, we have two special guests, baron davis, a renaissance man for these modern times. you might remember him from the nba. like many of his peers, he is showing he is a champion in many ways, entertainment, and business. >> ben davis, from 92 feet away! >> baron davis! >> what's up, now what? >> inclined!

>> don't play with him. he's also known for tnt basketball commentary, which helps athletes who are trying to get into entrepreneurship. he has made his debut along with a beat regular, who worked on the obama and clinton campaigns, seen here with bill clinton, doing the thing. welcome, both of you. you are up. this is a good co-guest situation for you. >> i'm really intimidated. >> you can tell who is the athlete onset. good to see you. we will let chase start, because he's the regular. >> people not going to the

movies need to fall back. staying home and not going to the movies needs to fall back. specifically the failure of " the fall guy" at the box office. here is a movie that's an original story, with romance, comedy, action, human beings doing actual sense, but no superheroes, no cgi monsters, it does not have cartoons for the kids. it doesn't have those things, so as a result, people don't go to the theater to see a movie like that. they wait for it to come out. >> you think good movies we share is more about being entertained, it's the stories that organize our lives and our culture and if we miss out on that we end up with what? >> a culture that is disposable, where we don't have common touch points to discuss things at people. everyone talks about scenes from "the godfather" or an action movie like "diehard." that creates common culture.

the mac or "white men can't jump." >> that was shot a few miles away, in venice. those things provide a touchstone of culture and not having that, a culture where we have so much streaming in movies, we are losing something. >> i think it is the system. i think it is more so, you know, people can't relate to the movies. i think hollywood is chasing trends, trends are dying off in a few months, we look at some acres. what does the future look like? how do we capture the moment? a lot of people are trying to

figure out, how can they get as many social media impressions to get kids to come to the theater instead of making the movies that people want to see? >> baron, it's your first time on "the beat", welcome. what's on your list? >> governor kathy of new york. she made the statement to that kids don't know what a computer is. >> black kids. >> yeah. i want her to fall back but i actually want her to fall forward. >> a little different, all right. >> i think that some things can be taken out of context and i think her intentions were right but what she said was wrong because she's not part of the culture. if you are saying these things and it's part of your political campaign and political speech, are you actually in the schools?

working and learning, these kids are so much smarter. the mac she's a democrat and there are certain democratic politicians who sometimes seem to reference or address -- as if they are not in touch. and then they say, i meant, i'm connect thing. i guess you were saying maybe they are not listening and doing the groundwork to have a productive conversation. >> you cannot be in touch while you are saying that black kids don't know what a computer is. building things including their own youtube and stuff, it's more so that they don't have access to the information that they don't have access to the necessary tools, and there's not the corporations coming into the black community, giving that access. they know what a computer is. >> you didn't work for her, but

you worked for many democrat. how does a democratic a book at that moment?'s the mac it tells me my boss more retail politics. they need to be out in the community, talking to voters. that is something you don't really get in big states like new york, california, florida, texas. you saw that with ron desantis when he walked into a diner, how awkward he was. in big states they don't do that and it's so important. obama was a community organizer. joe biden took amtrak every single day, back and forth. they did things where they talked to normal, regular people and they, themselves, were normal, regular people. >> in conclusion, your sharp guy. -- you are a sharp guy. great to have you, good to see you. two sharp guys. a special edition of "the