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best-selling author luke russert gets tonight's last word. at the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. tonight, my exclusive interview with senator mitt romney. >> my wing of the party is like a chicken wing, all right? >> what else he said about the republican party, it's presumptive nominee is multiple criminal cases, and the biggest threats facing our country right now. plus, the stage is set for not one, but two presidential debates. how both candidates are already taunting one another, and what it could mean for the high- stakes 2024 race as the 11th hour gets underway on this wednesday night. good evening, once again, i am stephanie ruhle back in new york city, and we are now 174 days away from the election.

this morning president biden came out swinging, state of the union style. he challenged donald trump to not one, but two residential debates while also taunting him about his new york criminal trial. trump agreed immediately and asked for more debates. our own peter alexander has more. >> reporter: tonight the stage is set for the first tv confrontation between president biden and former president trump and more than three years. the agreement actuating a dizzying day of dealmaking. the president posting this video responding to weeks of pressure from mr. trump for a debate. >> donald trump wants two debates with me in 2020. since then he hasn't shown up for debate. now he is acting like he wants to debate megan. make my day, pal. >> reporter: the president taunting his opponent over his manhattan hush money trial that is kept in court four days a week.

>> pick the day, donald. i heard you're free on wednesdays. >> reporter: there are traditionally three debates, the president offering two. trump, who refused all the primary debates, quickly saying yes and pushing for more, writing i am ready and willing to debate crooked joe at the two proposed times. i would strongly recommend more than two debates, and for excitement purposes, a very large venue. just tell me when, i will be there. within hours, a pair of debate dates were set, one in late june, another in september. meanwhile, this all comes the same day we got very good news about the economy. all three major u.s. stock indices, the dow, the s&p 500, and the nasdaq closed at record highs. and if you are saying well, the market is not the economy, i have other good news. this came after the latest government data show that inflation, which is plaguing all of us, slow down in the month of april. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel tonight. molly john fast is here, special correspondent for vanity fair and msnbc contributor. and peter baker joins us, chief

white house correspondent for the new york times. peter, what can you tell us? what we know about why biden's campaign and made this move now, and why a debate in june, three months earlier than usual? >> yeah, three months earlier than usual. we are going to have the debate for the first time in a presidential year before either of the two nominees are actually nominees. we are not going to have the conventions until later this summer. this is something we have never seen before. and why did it happen? traditionally it is the candidate who is weakest who wants the debate. guess what? both candidates here wanted the debate, because both of them are weak in their own ways. neither one of them has cracked 50%. neither one of them has a lead above the margin of error, and both of them have a desire to change the subject. trump changing the subject after his hush money trial, by the time this debate happens he may be a convicted felon and he would like to talk about anything other than that. and and would like to talk about anything other than his weakness in the polls, anything other than the fact that he is

not beating the guy who may be a convicted felon. he like to get on stage and show that he cannot make a referendum on joe biden, but a referendum on donald trump. >> molly, what is your take? president biden kind of going dark branded, making the video, saying i hear you are free wednesdays. the only day he is not in court areas saying make my day. what do you think of the strategy? >> i often think that works for him, that bravado. the big loser here is the commission on presidential debates. >> tell us why. >> they have hosted debates for a long time, and that is the president. what i heard from biden camp is that, and this, they also told politico, that they felt like the commission on presidential debates was unable to keep trump from talking over biden, that they did not need his mike, that they were not able to enforce the rules. i think they are hoping that a news venue will be able to enforce the rules with donald trump. we have seen that many places have trouble enforcing the

rules when it comes to donald trump. but we will see. >> you had led me to the next question perfectly, because i want to remind people of what the 2020 showdowns looked like, and why it is important that we need to have rules. watch this. >> i'm not here to call out his lies. everyone knows he's a liar. i want to make sure, oh, god -- >> mr. president, you let him finish. >> we have the highest deficit with china that we have before. >> china eight your lunch, joe. >> mr. president, your campaign agreed that both sides would get two minute answers, uninterrupted. your side agreed to it, and why don't you observe what your campaign agreed to as a ground rule, okay, sir? >> he never keeps his word. >> that was a rhetorical question. >> you mean the laptop is now

another russia hoax? >> that's exactly where were going. >> this is where he's going. the laptop. >> gentlemen, i want to stay on the issue of race. >> you have to be kidding. here we go again with russia. >> i'm not going to answer the question. >> why would you answer that question? >> will you shut up, man? >> who is on your list? >> for those of you who are old enough to remember, take me away. there are people looking at that saying what are we going to learn? we already know everything there is to know about these two candidates. why are those people wrong? why will this matter? what are these things going to look like? >> i think you are right to point out this is the first campaign we have had basically in our lifetime with the two candidates are universally known and away we have never seen before.

in the past, when you have had an incumbent president running against a challenger, it was the job of the incumbent to define the challenger before he can define himself, the way george w. bush did with john kerry or barack obama did with mitt romney. that is not happening here. we know who these guys are. the real test here is for each of them to make it about the other candidate. americans have already shown through polls, they are not particularly thrilled with this choice. they are not thrilled with either of those candidates. democrats are not particularly thrilled with biden as candidate. republicans are not thrilled with trump. so each of them needs to say to the voters, look, you may not like me but the other guy on stage, the guy sitting next to me right now is a disaster for the country. that is the challenge here. how you make a referendum about the other guy rather than about yourself? >> what does trump think he's going to get out of this? debates are about policy. donald trump does not talk policy. he likes to do rallies with a teleprompter with a loving fan base. >> donald trump love's performance. so he thinks that this, more performances, even in the tweets or whatever it is, whatever social media platform

he uses to communicate, you know, he said that he wanted to have more of them, wanted to have a bigger venue. he is a performer, and he tends to think that whatever he does, as long as it is a performance, helps them. we got into this whole candidate trump versus defendant trump situation where he felt that even giving little talks before he goes into the trial is somehow helpful to him. i don't necessarily think it's true, but it does play well with his base. and i think that is really all, trump has only ever cared about his base. which is why he has been unable to grow the electorate. >> peter, for a long time we thought we were getting none, now we are getting two. what are the chances you think we will get another one actually added closer to the election day, when traditionally we see the debates? >> i think, by the way, we should be careful to assume we are getting two. it is very possible something blows up between now and june

27th. a fight over the rules, trump may say he wants to debate, but maybe he changes his mind and says i don't really like the moderators or i don't like the rules they have imposed and he decides to blow it up. that is characteristic, he has done that before. he did not debate, as you rightly pointed out, during the primaries. not even a single time. so it is not 100% sure we get these two. but it is possible we get another one after that. what's interesting is they are doing them so early, but that is also because the election, in a way, starts early. but the last one is now scheduled for september 10th, that is right around the time that in some states voting actually begins. early in person voting and mail voting begins a lot earlier than we have ever had. so election day is not an election day anymore, it is several election weeks. and in fact they are moving of the debate schedule because the actual voting is moving up, as well. >> molly, peter, thank you so much. he brings up a good point. who knows if there will actually be a debate? this is the same guy who wants to testify. that ain't happening.

thank you both for starting us off. when we come back, my exquisite keynote conversation with republican senator mitt romney. we get into his farewell from congress, the dysfunction in the gop, the november election, and a whole lot more. you do not want to miss it. the 11th hour, a very special edition just getting underway on a wednesday night. they're already there. they wear business sneakers and pad their keyboards with something that makes their clickety-clacking... clickety-clackier. but no one loves logistics as much as they do. you need tamra, izzy, and emma. they need a retirement plan. work with principal so we can help you with a retirement and benefits plan that's right for your team. let our expertise round out yours. [coughing] copd hasn't been pretty. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets.

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since senator mitt romney ran for president 12 years ago. and with his final year in the united states senate almost behind him, he is rated talk about all of it. i sat down with senator romney for an exclusive keynote conversation about his final year in congress and his thoughts on what comes next for our country. watch this. >> you only have a few months left in this position, so there's not a lot of time to get stuff done. but there is still a host of issues plaguing our country. what are the things you are most worried about? >> i have a note to begin that a lot of politicians spend their time talking about things that sound good to the folks back home, but have no impact on the future of the country. >> you don't need to do that. >> i don't need to do that. but the big things we got to be dealing with, one, the amount of debt we have. it is getting to be a problem. number two, the emergence of china as a great power, if not

the great power. three, the climate. we talk about things that make us feel good about ourselves but won't actually deal with the climate. and the big one, artificial intelligence. ai is changing the world. it is as big a disrupter as nuclear power was. how are we going to do with it? these are things we are going to finally have to get our arms around if we are going to make sure that the future is as bright for our kids as it has been for us. >> the only way we do that is to work together. you are leading congress along with a number of other colleagues who are known for creating bipartisan solutions. but right now, sort of rising prominent voices, especially on the right, are condemning working together. they mockingly talk about the union party. but isn't working together what you are supposed to do? why has it become a bad thing? >> the reality is, given the way that government works, in order for something to become law requires republicans and democrats to agree. all right? that is to become law.

there are a lot of evil who don't want anything to become law. like well, we are not going to solve the deficit if we don't create law. we are not going to fix the border if we don't have law. we are not going to do with the emergence of china taking away our jobs. we will not deal with the changes in our climate. all these things have to have people work together. and i know it's nice to go back home and fire up the base and get everyone to say he is a real fighter. but if that fighter is not willing to actually work with people across the aisle, that fighter is not going to get anything done. and there are too many people today that do not recognize we need to do some things right now, because not doing something could end up being quite perilous down the road. >> president biden ran as a bipartisan president. he has worked with you on a number of things and gotten a lot done. the infrastructure law, the chips act, lowered healthcare costs, the list goes on. but the country remains polarized and getting more

divided. if he would have a second term, do you think there is something he could do to actually bring people back together? because he has got a lot of policies under his belt that he has done for the country, and work with you. >> yeah, the way to bring people together is not just to give a good speech. as nice as that is. the way to get people together is to tell the truth. to let them know what the real challenges are that you are concerned about, and how you are going to honestly deal with them. >> but president biden isn't just giving a good speech, infra structure law is now the law. the chips act as bringing jobs back, bringing manufacturing back. those aren't speeches, those are policies. >> there is no question that president biden published a number of things. don't forget, and politics very few people care about what you have done, they care about what you are going to do. and right now there are a couple of things that are very much on people's mind. number one, the fact that things cost more than they did before. inflation is still there. people somehow think the prices are going to go down. when you reduce inflation, prices don't go down.

that would be deflation. they just stabilize. and they are getting stabilize. but the fact that people are paying more is a real concern. number two, the border. people have been screaming about the border for 3 1/2 years that joe biden has an president. and he has not done anything to solve the problem at the border. that is a huge issue for president trump. i can't understand why president biden didn't tackle this from the very beginning. >> what has congress done? because it is congress who sets the walls. >> well, the republicans have put forward our plan. the house put out a border plan, and that is what congress did. the president said no, that wasn't acceptable. then they began working on a bipartisan basis. but you know what? this was not a problem when president trump was president. >> the border has been a problem for years, and a plan was just put together and it was donald trump who is not currently in office who blocked it. >> yeah, he blocked the plan, i'm sure, because he wants to keep this issue hot and alive

for his election. but don't forget, when he was president he did a lot of things that sounded really ugly, but we didn't have anywhere near the number of people who have come into the country illegally as we have under president biden. and that is something he should have done everything in his power, frankly, takes and actions that maybe the courts would have stopped. they would've had a better argument saying hey, congress needed to act. but he never did that. and as a result the american people are saying hey, i want something else. >> as you said, it doesn't matter what you did in the past, it matters what happens now. and right now, president biden with congress put together something and it was donald trump who blocked it. so he can say to the american people here is what i'm doing now. if donald trump were to be elected, do you think there is anything he would do to bring people together? >> i don't know that that is his ambition, to bring people together. i am not sure what exactly it is he hopes to do. if he gets a second term. maybe in a second term he will be thinking less about appealing to the base and maybe actually having a legacy of some kind. i don't know. but as you listen to the campaign so far, it is basically saying hey, i won in 2020.

>> which he didn't. >> and trying to get other people to say the same thing. taking on social issues, culture issues, and making a big deal of that. that is kind of what his campaign is focused on. and of course, the border. that is an issue that works for him. it worked for him back in 2016. he expects it will work for him again. if i were president biden i would be all over that. and instead, he served it to trump on eight silver platter. >> of course, now he is addressing the border and trump is blocking it. i wanted to talk about foreign policy, because you know a ton about it. there now are people in your party who are expressing views that would've been unthinkable a few years ago. when you think about support for ukraine. even the idea that people somehow have similar views of the likes of vladimir putin. what is your take on that? where did it come from? >> yeah, is disorienting. to someone like me, it is unimaginable that in the party of ronald reagan and george

herbert walker bush and john mccain and others, that we would see a growing isolationism within our party. i think it flows in part from talk tv, talk radio. the tucker carlson's of the world that say outrageous things and the base says yeah, exactly. and so, many in our party have followed that popular streak, which is hey, stop worrying about the rest of the world. just worry about what is going on here. what they are forgetting is that we are connected to the rest of the world. our economy is connected to the rest of the world. if we had that attitude, then germany would have ended up ruling the world. we are involved in the world out of our own self-interest. and i laugh at the phrase america first. i know it typically means isolationism. but really, america is putting ourselves first when we are involved in the world. when we stop bad people. if vladimir putin goes not just

for ukraine, but then decides to go into poland, and we are involved in conflict with our sons and daughters going to war. or we can walk away from nato, in which case putin is going to keep going and going. how about a world where china and russia control the world and we have our own little island? that is not a world where americans are going to be safe or prosperous. we are safe and prosperous when the world follows the orders that have existed over the last 75 years, with strong nato, strong allies, strong friends. and where america stands for something like freedom. >> you were the last republican nominee, and many of your supporters feel a bit homeless. i mean, nikki haley just yesterday won 20% of the vote in nebraska and maryland, and she has been out of the race for 10 weeks. what does that say for this faction of your flavor of conservativism? where did those voters go? is this a moment to create of movement for your wing of the

party? >> my wing of the party is like a chicken wing. it is a little tiny thing that doesn't take the bird off the ground. we are going to have to change that, in my view. i don't know how that will play out over time, but there will be voices that come forward that i think will be more aligned with the traditional conservative views that i have espoused and that our party has traditionally. we will see. time will tell. i can't predict what is going to happen in politics. >> but the chicken wing needs a home now. when you have a two party system. >> it is going averages between the two candidates that are there, and it is going to do so very reluctantly. why do i think people are not getting 100% behind joe biden or 100% behind donald trump? because they are not entirely happy with the two. when you ask people would you rather have trump, biden, or someone else, someone else typically gets the plurality if not the majority. they would like something else. but that is not the choice they have, and as a result they will have to choose between the two.

>> so what choice we make? >> i'm not announcing that here now. i am not going to be voting for president trump, i made that clear. i know for some people character is not the number one issue, it is for me. when someone has been, well, determined by a jury to have committed sexual assault but that is not someone who i want my kids and grandkids to see as president of the united states. >> in the last two elections i believe you wrote in your wife's name. it shows a lot of support for her, i get that. but that is not a serious thing to do, and you are a very serious person who has laid out all sorts of risks that we face. do you see yourself writing in a candidate this time? >> well, my particular vote does not have a big impact, because i am from utah. >> is that what you say to voters from utah? >> what i tell people if you want to choose between one of two people. the people at large on to choose between one and two. in my case, having been the former nominee of the republican party, i want to

make sure that i am in a position after the selection to have some influence on the direction of her party in the future. so i'm not going to go out and do something which would make that more difficult to occur. i already think our party has to come back to the basis that has been successful for us in the past. >> there is talk today about a presidential debate maybe as early as june. i know debates were important to you, they certainly got you a lot of momentum in 2012 area do you think they matter today? in many ways we know a lot about the two people running. do you think it will impact votes, maybe even your vote? >> well, the image that comes to mind is those two old guys on the muppets. statler and waldorf. that is what comes to mind. but i actually think that will be a huge audience for these debates. i think people have very low expectations as to what president biden will do, i think they have much higher expectations about president trump and his combativeness. >> what are your expectations? >> well, i share the public

perceptions. we will see what happens. >> you represent character. you represent integrity. if our country, knowing what they know about donald trump, decide to elect him, what does it say about our national character? >> i am one of those that believes that character is the single most important thing in selecting the person to lead the nation. that we can survive that policy, but the long-term, we can't be the leader of the world if we are led with that character. some people disagree with me. they say actually policy is pretty darn important. what is happening at the borders important. what is happening with tax policy is important. what is happening on inflation is important. if families are having a hard time putting food on the table they might think character is all well and good, that i need to pay for my food. so people have different priorities, and i respect that. my priority is that character comes first. >> much more of my interview with senator romney after the break. and we return, we are talking defendant donald, and why mitt romney thinks president biden should have pardoned donald trump. when the 11th hour continues.

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reducing emissions by 60%. ♪♪ we're moving forward with indycar. because we're moving forward with everybody. shell. powering progress. former president donald j trump will return to court tomorrow for day 18 of his criminal trial. of course i had to ask senator romney about it during our interview, and what he makes of his republican colleagues who paraded themselves outside the manhattan courthouse. watch this.

>> 50 years ago leaders in the republican party walked into the right house and told eight criminal president he needed to step down. this week leaders in the republican party went up to that trial, stood outside the courthouse, and attacked our legal system. how does that make you feel about republicans right now? >> yeah, i think it is a terrible fault for country to see people attacking our legal system. that is an enormous mistake. i think it is also demeaning for people to quite apparently try and run for vice president by donning a red tie and standing outside the courthouse. i would have felt awkward where i one of those individuals. but i can also say, i think president biden made an enormous error. he should have fought like crazy to keep this prosecution from going forward. it was a win win for donald trump. >> is that joe biden's job? >> i have been around for a

while. if lbj had been president and he didn't want something like this to happen, he would be all over that prosecutor saying you'd better not bring that forward or i will drive you out of office. >> but i'm pretty sure you support having separate but equal branches of government. >> i do, that you may disagree with this, but had i been president biden, when the justice department brought an indictment, i would immediately part in it. i would have part in president trump. why? because it makes me, president biden, the big guy. and the person i pardoned the little guy. and number two, it's not going to get resolved before the election. it's not going to have an impact for the election. and frankly, the country doesn't want to have to go through prosecuting a former president. i think the american people have recognized that president trump did have an inappropriate affair with someone who was a porn star. i think they realize that. i think they realize he to classify documents he shouldn't have and did not handle them properly. i think they realize he has been lying about the election in 2020. they know those things. so these things are not changing the public attitude, and frankly, we ought to get

beyond the is and focus on the big issues that really matter to the american people. our inflation, our border, what is happening around the world. america's involvement in the world. and i think president biden and president trump would do just focusing on the future for this great country. >> before we go, one of the most important things is our democracy. democracy held in the last election, in large part because your republican colleagues followed the rule of law. if president trump loses the selection, are you concerned that your colleagues won't do the same this time and we will have a different outcome? >> there is no question. but if this election is a narrow win for one side or the other, decide the loses will say it was not a fair election. and i don't know how democracy works if people can't trust elections. and if they can't trust americans. >> can you think of an example of a democratic president who tried to hold up the certification of the newly elected republican? >> i'm not enough of a

nestorian to go back. >> anita the answer, and it is no. >> i know there were never senators and congress people who try to hold of the certification of state electors in the past. that happened before, it was squashed and it was squashed in 2020. i presume that will be, again, i hope so, our institution help. but you cannot be 100% confident they will hold again. there is no question. but when you have a person running for president who is not willing to say i believe the outcome of an election, that is a threat to democracy. and when you weaken our judicial system, when you weaken the fbi, these are things that strike at the heart of democracy, and that is one of the reasons we are fighting as hard as we are to shore up these institutions. to tell people the truth about them, and hopefully have folks listen to folks accu -- like you to understand what is at stake. >> you are an optimist and you

believe in american exceptionalism. why are you so optimistic about our future? >> first of all, america is an extraordinarily resilient country. we just had this extraordinary pandemic, and yet our economy is strong. low levels of unemployment. is extraordinary. and it is not because the president is pulling all the levers in the right way. no, it's not. it is because the american people are fulfilling their dreams. >> so the economy is strong? >> yes, the economy is strong. there is no question, the economy is doing well. and that is because of the american people. it is not because of the president or the federal reserve. they can mess things up, but the american people pursuing their dreams is what makes america work. will we suffer slings and arrows? yeah. will we come out the other side? absolutely. >> senator, it was an honor and a privilege to speak to you this morning. i really appreciate it. >> thanks, stephanie. >> now let's bring in two gentlemen who know senator romney even more than i do.

staff writer for the atlantic and msnbc political contributor, but also the author of romney, a reckoning. and stuart stevens, a veteran of the mitt romney and george w. bush campaigns. he is now with the lincoln project. stuart, as somebody who worked very closely with senator romney, what stood out to you from our conversation? >> i thought it was a great interview. i wish he had been elected president, he would've been a great president. but he has moved on from that, i think he is focused on the future. look, what can i say? i agree with him completely. this is a race that should be determined by character. and the republican nominee has no character. terrible character. and i really think nothing else matters much in this election. it is just such a stark contrast. and mitt romney, it is fascinating to me that a party can nominate mitt romney and then four years later nominate donald trump. in the history of america has there ever been such a change in choice by a party? i don't

think so. and i think what it says is not flattering about the republican party. >> mckay, what stood out to you? >> the thing that stood out to me in your conversation is one that stood out to me a lot in my conversations while working on the book, which is it is almost kind of a deeply unfashionable view of how washington should work. he talked in your interview about how there is no way to get laws passed without the two parties agreeing to work together. and that sounds almost trite, right? something we all kind of acknowledge on the surface. but you try to do it, and even very obvious ways. and there is just enormous pushback from the activist bases of both parties. you look at the people who are leaving congress, leaving the senate this year, and they are overwhelmingly people who have tried to work together with the

other side and have gotten primary, who have gotten serious backlash from the extreme hearts of their parties. and it is sad, i think, in some ways, that the things that mitt romney was telling you about how the senate should function, how washington search function seems heretical at this moment. >> let's talk about the future. while he said this is about character, that's why he is not going to vote for donald trump, he did not endorse president biden. and in the past, he says he is going to write his wife's name and, that is very unserious to do at a serious time. but what was interesting is he explained he is not going to tell the american people who he is voting for because he doesn't want to lose future influence he has over his party. what does that tell you about what he wants to do next? >> well, i think you want to try to save the republican party because america needs a center-

right party. it does. right now there is a deep hollowness at the center right of that party. mitt romney is an interesting historical figure. he was the first senator ever to vote to impeach a member of his own party. i mean, that is pretty extraordinary when you think about it. and had the party followed romney when he came out almost eight years ago to the day, he spoke out about donald trump. i think this country would have been in a lot better shape. i mean, it clearly would've been better to elect hillary clinton than donald trump. ask all the dead ukrainians about it. and then someone who spent most of my life pointing out flaws in the democratic party. but it was a terrible direction that the party took. and look, i will just say, we are pointing out here donald trump has never gotten north of 47%. he got 46.2, he got 46.9. romney lost at 47.2%. so this idea that there is some giant swell of support for

donald trump in the party, i think within the party it is true, but within the country, no. and i think that donald trump is shrinking the party. we saw in iowa, the 37% of the party now is female. it is just amazing what he is doing to the party. and something has to change. i think it's going to be a long time until the republican party can return to any sort of center . but that is a party i would hope mitt romney would play a role in leading. >> do you think senator romney is understating things when i talk about his brand of conservativism, and he says oh, his wing of the party is the size of a chicken wing? he doesn't really believe that. i mean, what was it, two nights ago nikki haley is still getting 20% of the vote in nebraska and maryland. do you think that the likes of mitt romney and others are potentially working with nikki haley to create their own movement?

not the whole party to begin with, it started with a movement within the party. could mitt romney be trying to develop that again with his ring, what he calls the chicken wing? >> the chicken wing movement of the party. i mean, it's a good question. look, i remember when i was finishing my book, this was a couple, about a year ago. every time i would go over to his house he had some kind of new scheme that he was working on to influence the 2024 election or to try to bring people back to the center, or he considered himself running an independent presidential bid this year, kind of a cathartic primal scream of a campaign where he could say what he actually believed rather than what focus groups imposed on him to do. i don't know what he will do in the future. i really don't. i will say, i disagree with you that he definitely won't share who he votes for.

i think it's a possibility that he will end up making an endorsement. i think time will tell. but i do think that you are right, stephanie, that the mitt romney wing of the republican party, what he represents, it is not clearly the majority of the party. but it is not a minuscule fraction, right? and a lot of people who have voted for mitt romney, voted for john mccain, voted for george w. bush are currently identifying as independents or even democrats because they have been pushed out of the trump gop. this people could be brought back into the tent if the party were to return to some semblance of a healthy, serious political party. and i think that is what romney is hoping for. >> i don't think he's going to tell us who he is voting for, but i don't think he's going to write his wife's name and again. i think there is too much at stake. mckay, stewart, thank you so much for joining us. stuart, i know you helped me get ready for the interview, thank you for that. and you at home can catch my

full extended interview. if that wasn't enough for you with senator romney on our youtube page, just go to msnbc.com/stephanie. when we return, the war in gaza fired of students on college campuses across this country, but it led to encampments and clashes, serious ones, with the lease. why our next guest, a very special guest, thinks those actions may be hurting more than they are helping palestinians. we will have that when the 11th hour continues. -lasting gain st beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain! we're talking about practicing-- practicing good financial strategy. ...by cashbackin. what'd you think i was talking about? -not a game. -not a game. -talking about cashbackin. -cashbackin. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cash back?

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semitism, chaos, vandalism, and extremism. i'm afraid the more aggressive actions may be hurting the gazans you are trying to help. here to discuss, the man himself. nick kristof. congratulations on your book. i want to start with that new york times piece. because you say that the vietnam war protests in the 1960s have shaped your

thinking on this issue. what do you want us to remember from that time? >> so the vietnam protesters were right that the war is immoral in my view. should have gone out of it. and yet, although they were right on the merits, the way they protested probably ended up elected richard nixon over hubert humphrey and that dragged the war on for years meant more americans diagnose and more vietnamese dying. >> so what do you think is the best way for these students to bring change now? >> so that is really hard and i wish i had a good solution. i'm frustrated too. i deeply believe what is going on in gaza is a horrendous a tragedy perpetuated with american weapons and american support. and i suggested the students do things like write letters to

the editor and comment. and they roll their eyes at that. >> i'm rolling my eyes. write letters to your congressperson. >> but, at least that doesn't create a negative effect. and you know, right now. >> and it doesn't bring about change. >> it doesn't bring about beneficial or harmful change. >> so it does nothing. >> right now, we are not talking about gazans starving to death or rafhah being invaded, we are talking about campus protests so they have diverted attention away from what the protest need to be. >> what grade would you give president biden of his handle of this war? >> i wish i could give him a better grade. i admire biden and i think he knows foreign policy pretty well. i think he got snookers. i thought he think the war would end earlier.

i think he thought he could restrain benjamin netanyahu with a bear hug and those were untrue and i think he just didn't imagine that israel would level entire neighborhoods and block humanitarian aid and cause starvation. >> you talk about groups violating human rights. what do you see today as the most dangerous threat to the world right now? >> there are so many all around. there's maybe the biggest nightmare i would worry about is a crisis involving china. that escalates either in the south china sea or east china sea. and that may be more likely to lead to a nuclear confrontation than russia and ukraine. i think it is quite unlikely but possible. >> what is the most important? what is the biggest thing you have learned over your 40 years reporting? >> can you believe this? you are aging me!

so, it is actually i think a little counter intuitive. i spent my career covering war, genocide, poverty, and disease. >> the most dedifficult things. >> t but i emerged reasonably hopeful about humanity. and eai mean it is pretty odd covering genocide to feel pretty good. but the truth is that i have just seen tremendous progress over that period. and side by side with the worst of humanity, you see the very best. my optimism. it is not gooey oh everything will be fine. but it is the sense that we have the capacity as humans to tackle these challenges. if we are not paralyzed by despair and gloom. >> do we not do enough talking about celebrating the best of humanity? when you think about what we consume every day, it is that mass despair.

not the excellence. >> we cover planes that crash, not planes that land. that gives potentially this iv misperception that planes are crashing all the time. i think we are focused, we feed that despair and i do think that can be paralyzing. i do think we need to bring some motion of this backdrop of progress otwhich i think is important. >> i do too. congratulations on your book. it is always great to see you. nick kristof, a truly extraordinary reporter. we'll be back after a break. rd we'll be back after a break. (knock on the door) are you using all the old spice? oops. ♪ (old spice mnemonic) ♪ you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady.

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