here in this case throughout is to put in enough supporting document station that even if the jury ultimately says we don't like him, we don't believe him, that there's enough between e-mails and text messages, documents and other witness testimony, that i think there's room for a conviction. i also think that this is a point where it might be a good thing for the prosecution to have those lawyers on the case. i think sometimes, at least this is my gut view as a lawyer, that sometimes jurors who are not lawyers, might decide a case based more on emotion than on logic and these lawyers are going to demand the rigor of logic and i think if you line up the logic, even if you despise michael cohen there's sufficient evidence for a conviction here. >> it's going to be interesting. we're going to say goodbye and leave you with this. blanche just asked michael cohen, you refer to president trump as a cheeto dusted cartoon villain. cohen says sounds like something i would say. do you recall about the time --

i truly hope this man ends up prison. cohen says sounds right. nicolle wallace will pick it up from here. thank you as well. all of our guests that have joined us including duncan, we will see you back here on thursday afternoon when we're going to do it all over again. don't go anywhere. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone. we have a packed house. it's 4:00 in new york. after putting donald trump in the room where it happened, where that allegedly criminal scheme to hide hush money payments ahead of the 2016 presidential election was hatched, the ex-president's former fixer michael cohen today closed the loop on the story that often sounds like it is straight out of a bad mafia movie. cohen describing donald trump operating like a mob boss who became president of the united states using a back channel to

keep cohen quiet and loyal and cohen describing going to prison and ultimately breaking with donald trump. the man he served for more than a decade. happening right now, michael cohen is facing cross-examination. he's answering questions from trump attorney todd blanche. it is sometimes very testy. it's sometimes very flat. we'll get into all of it. and it comes after michael cohen recounted to the jury everything in his life that led up to this moment. cohen describing meeting with donald trump in the oval office and being reassured that he would get paid for paying off stormy daniels. getting reimbursed for the hush money payments going through it check by check by check by check by check by check by check by check and by check, invoice, invoice, invoice, every last one of them. this is important because each one of these documents amounts to one of the felony charges against donald trump. cohen also described the 2018 raid by the fbi saying he was,

quote, concerned despondent and angry. after that trump told him this, quote, don't worry, i'm the president of the united states. there's nothing here. everything's going to be okay. stay tough. you are going to be okay. that would be the last time the two men would ever speak. michael cohen telling the jury that he faced pressure to hire an ally of rudy giuliani's, attorney robert past tell lo who acted as a back channel to trump, sleep well tonight, you have friends in high places. the message from team trump to cohen was very clear, cohen saying, he was saying stay loyal, don't cooperate, don't flip. essentially saying it on twitter at the same time which was entered into evidence. ultimately michael cohen would plead guilty. that came in august of 2018 because he decided that, quote, i would not lie for president trump any longer. prosecution reminded everyone that michael cohen went to

prison for doing something at trump's direction, in a sentencing memo. prosecutor asked this, quote, why, in fact, did you pay that money to stormy daniels? cohen, to ensure the story would not come out and affect mr. trump's chances of becoming president of the united states. prosecutor susan hoffinger asked, quote, if not for the election would you have paid the money to stormy daniels? cohen replies, no, ma'am. prosecutor susan hoffinger asked, at his direction did you pay the money? cohen says, trump's. the prosecution's questioning ends with prosecutor susan hoffinger asking michael cohen if he has any greets working for trump, to which he responded, quote, i regret doing things for him that i should not have, lying, bullying people to effectuate the goal. i do not regret working for the trump organization. i expressed before, some very

interesting and great times. to keep a loyalty and do the things he asked me to do, i violated my law compass and suffered the penalty, as has my family. a dramatic day of testimony from a former trump loyalist turned star witness for the prosecution that is very much still happening under way at this hour where we begin with our most favorite reporters and friends with us at the table for the hour, msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann is here. just back from the courthouse. nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard is here. "new york times" investigative reporter susan craig joins us and former federal prosecutor and sdny deputy chief, msnbc legal analyst, christy greenberg is here. vaughn hillyard, word on the street is blanche is bombing. how is that going to go over with trump? >> a man supposed to be his voice. sue and i were on the subway and following along the last hour and wondering if there was going to be -- >> is that fair? >> a dialog from todd blanche

going on the offense against michael cohen. but that hasn't taken place yet. over the course of the first several minutes there was a drawn out back and forth over whether he leaked a story to the press or not. all of us sitting in the courthouse there were looking at one another like this is not what we anticipated. we're thinking there was going to be questions about his credibility. even when todd blanche brought up a photo of michael cohen wearing a shirt that had donald trump behind bars, even then michael cohen was very dispassionate, yeah, i wore that shirt, and the jury they have heard this. they know who michael cohen is at this point, so it was just something else to watch this afternoon unfold. this morning, when answering the questions of the prosecution, he was dispassionate, believable figure there, and so far that is who the jury has in their mind right now. >> i read some of it and what seemed -- i read msnbc's reporting blanche has been preparing for this moment, but i also wonder if that months long

planning didn't get recalibrated over the last 48 hours when the prosecution didn't just hang a lantern, they shined a light on all of michael cohen's warts, the lies, the shame, the loyalty, the leaks. that's what the second day of direct was. >> right. >> i'm not -- i don't think that they did, though. i'm not a lawyer, but if i was todd blanche i would have started out and had a bunch of questions, you've called donald trump a jerk. you've called him the worst person on earth. you've called him this. i would have gone on and tried to get that sort of thing out and at least create some sort of narrative and then go into how he's monetized it. he seemed to be jumping all over. he started -- i thought out of the gate he started strong, we've never met, have we? he says, you've called me, this is like family tv i can't say it, but a really horrible thing. >> the most -- the worst -- >> objection. >> and then an objection right

away. it did wake everybody up and the jury heard it. he's been bobbing and weaving around different things rather than going i think topic by topic. >> he elicited five minutes ago a defense of michael cohen in response to todd blanche, quote, at the time i was knee deep into the cult of donald trump. essentially suggesting yes, i looked at him as my surrogate family. and that is who -- what the jury is hearing, michael cohen saying i was so far in to donald trump, i would do whatever it took to be there to defend him. >> he hasn't gotten michael cohen riled. that's where they want to go, get michael cohen really agitated. michael cohen is a little bit agitated but -- >> michael cohen wakes up a little bit agitated. you know todd blanche. you worked with him. is this his thing? >> no. i mean, i don't know why he would start about michael cohen calling him names. it seems like he's got a thin skin. this is -- this has nothing to do with him. i would think the first question would be you're a convicted

liar. you have lied, you've lied to the irs, to banks, you've lied to congress. like point out the lies because that is where -- that's really his achilles heel. he can't quite fully admit all of his lies to this day. i didn't think he really did it on direct even at the end when he was still kind of dancing around whether he's admitted and really taken responsibility for all of the crimes, the ones that did not involve donald trump, the tax fraud, bank fraud, that had nothing to do with trump, and he was still, you know, yes, i pled guilty to it and i don't dispute the facts but they really shouldn't have come after me for that and it was wrong of the prosecutor. >> she shouldn't have come after my wife. >> he said they shouldn't come after his wife, he was threatened, which again, i don't know the specifics of what happened there, but generally in my experience in that office, that's not generally how these things go. i mean, jeff berman in his book said they were surprised when

michael cohen said he was going to take a plea. it wasn't something they were expecting. they were expecting to go to trial. you know, again, what he has said publicly about that is actually very different than what he said on the stand. what he said publicly in numerous interviews i dispute the facts, i didn't commit tax evasion, i didn't do these things. point out the inconsistencies. get -- go on the offensive and once you can show that he has lied about certain this then you want to get the jury to say if he's lying about these matters you can't trust him, and you can't trust him on these matters. that's maybe more of a natural way to go. instead, you're obsessed with trump, love the attention, love talking to the press, and that to me is a so what. i'm not sure that's where you start. >> it was the analysis of some of our legal experts and friends, that stormy daniels performed better on cross, so are they not strong at cross? do we have a pattern here yet?

>> well, i think it's a combination of sort of the on direct for stormy daniels, i think you have to remember, it's a high-profile matter for both the prosecutor, it's not every day you have this searing spotlight. for stormy daniels, it's not every day not only are you testifying under oath in a criminal case but a searing spotlight. direct which should be the easiest can be rocky for the witness and prosecutor. i can tell you, i used to say a high-profile case brings out every flaw you have. if you have a lot like me that's a lot to bring out. for a witness, just think about stormy daniels, who might have, you know, may not be proud of everything in her life and certainly for michael cohen who has to admit a lot, it's difficult. so there's a reason direct can sometimes be stilted. by i think stormy daniels' cross

was -- i'm sure susan necheles doesn't like hearing this, but i think susan necheles dehumanized her and allowed her to speak and she was more comfortable and i think that happens when you have another day to sort of relax. i think that michael cohen, having heard him live on -- i thought he was sort of remarkably good. i also think people should i think stop saying oh, he's a different person. lawrence owe donald made this point when in court under oath you are a different person. there's a different circumstance. you act differently. i've been a witness. sometimes you take that oath so seriously, it is as if you are careful. you know, people have different parts of themselves. >> it's like getting pulled over from secondary screening. yes, ma'am, yes, sir, no. >> i will say also, todd blanche it's an interesting choice to have him do this. just because it's your first

time, doesn't mean you'll be bad at it, but, you know, he is not an experienced defense lawyer. he's an experienced prosecutor. it's a very different art form. i think so far, with a witness who has so much baggage, so many ways to attack him, you're not hearing what you usually get from a defense lawyer, which is clear, telegraphed, themes to a jury. and so i was, frankly, shocked that he started the way he did. it was -- i totally agree with kristi, beyond thin skinned, rude, it was clearly going to get an objection. i am not surprised that -- you do not want your first line of argument be sustained by the judge. jurors tend to like judges and sort of follow their lead. that was not great. there's so many better ways to deal with it. i feel because a lot of this

stuff deals with the special counsel office and inknow personally, there were things that i thought were misleading and i don't mean that defense lawyer shouldn't have been asking it, but i was like oh, come on. they tried to say didn't donald trump sort of -- during the russian investigation you were told not to speak to donald trump, as if like somehow you've been shunned, and that donald trump couldn't possibly have told you through indirectly what to say when you testified in front of congress. that is not how it works. these kind of cases, everyone is lawyered up. the fact that you're told that means you're inside the tent, not outside the tent. and the suggestion this means donald trump had no way of communicating to him. >> he's tweeting at him the day before and after. >> lawyers talk. i'm not saying they're saying lie, but they can communicate to what they think is a truthful story as to what should be said, and, so i just thought there was

some fast and loose with the facts. >> and that's a fact problem. there seems to be -- i just want to be blunt about what's happening right now. there is clearly a performance issue that judge merchan has noted, objections that have been sustained, described by reporters in the room, as combative when questioning. if he bombs at the performance level, what where does that leave you with trump? >> usually you get the boot as the lawyer. how many lawyers -- >> trump doesn't -- i mean trump didn't care where you went to law school. he wants you to look the part. feels like this may be a moment. >> that's why he lost the decision, the civil fraud trial. alina habba performed in his eyes how a lawyer should perform and who was sitting in the second row today, alina habba, not there arguing in his defense but sitting there as a witness. >> i felt like there was some

channeling of donald trump at the beginning. one of the first things we get out he's a liar and a folder, or, you know -- >> a folder. >> flipper. >> the adjectives. >> but that was one of the first things that came out, was that he's a leaker to the media, and these are all things that donald trump is very focused on. >> not things that trump -- i guess my point is, what are you handing me? what do you got? so -- >> next to you. >> this is happening right now. we should keep an eye on what's happening right now. i was not a lawyer and wasn't in the room but a student of donald trump and when someone is viewed to have bombed at a performance level he doesn't care if you're the smartest lawyer who breathed in air. this may be a tenuous air. >> it's too late to get rid of his lawyers. the second part is, being inside of that courthouse here today, usually i've been outside here getting the notes from our team

and sue and andrew were like you have to bear witness to this. i'm glad i did. the eyes. we come back to the eyes being shut for two minutes at a time. he would have his eyes shut this morning. then he would open them quickly, mention something to his attorney and back to his eyes shut. i don't know whether he's sleeping or not. what was taking me aback was it was defiance of the process. >> right. >> that's so interesting. >> there's a gag order placed on him. he can't stand up and speak out in his own defense in that courtroom unless he takes the stand. keeping his eyes shut almost in way of disregarding it, i don't care, about these proceedings with the jury right there, was his act of defiance. >> it really does feel that way. we were talking about this at lunch and i've come down on having seen him do it every day. it's not one day this happened. it is every day for 80 to 90% of the court proceedings, he hs his eye closed. he will nod off but that's not what's going on. his eyes closed i think it is an act of defiance, sending a

message. the jury is picking up on something there, but he doesn't care. >> so interesting. what's happening right now, i want to ask you about the final sort of chunk of the narrative on direct, that was this morning. i mean, some old characters, jeff sessions. i mean i had a million new questions about what when sessions recuses himself from all, we went back and looked at it, i covered it as and believed it to be sessions recusing himself from the russia question. if you go back and watch the video he says i'm recusing myself from all campaign related things. what cohen testifies to today under oath is that sessions was going to take care of pecker. that is not russia related. that is the cover-up. >> right. he says that donald trump specifically told him that sessions would have his back. >> it's incredible. >> it's a direct line. donald trump saying we're getting into the white house. don't worry about this. the justice department is going to be on our side. you're taken care of here.

when we're talking about the closing of the direct, michael cohen, to andrew's point about the human side of this, right, all of us have different personalities. 8:00 a.m. may be different than 8:00 p.m., saturday vaughn may be different than sunday vaughn. >> tell us more. >> and with michael cohen i think that's a reality. >> yeah. >> he was talking about being on tiktok but what you saw in there was somebody that felt to me he pled guilty to those federal charges just yesterday and being sentenced. when he was explaining looking eye to eye with the jurors of what he pleaded guilty to and being in prison for more than a year, you are hearing a man who was leaving his wife and his child behind. that was the human that in that moment, and i believe a real human that came out, and that is what jury the line he delivered, quote, i regret doing things for him that i should not have. lying, bullying people in order to effectuate the goal.

it sounded like a regretful man, somebody at least that moment in time was that human. all the other mikecles could be true but in that moment that is who the jury heard. >> and that's the michael that was a piece of the crime. i mean that's the michael that the jury is going have to believe on those questions. >> and i think also it's wrong for people to be confusing is he believable about things he experienced and conversations he has had, meetings he's had, while things were happening, and comparing that to is he credible about his own internal motivations now, and about sort of being honest with himself about can he fully admit, i did something wrong and every situation. those are different things. and you don't have to believe that he has like completely internalized like who he is now and that he is -- like he should

feel sorry. whether he really, really feels sorry or knows that's where he needs to be is a really different attribute about a person and it's funny this is where having dealt with cooperate teres and defense lawyers deal with this all the time when you have witnesses of their clients and those are just very different things and people sort of confuse the two. this is just like in terms of his own emotions about how he feels now and whether he's regretful or not is not the issue. >> whether he's a fully reformed man is interesting and it will be on the minds, i'm sure of the jurors. they'll wonder that. in terms of being a credible witness to the criminal scheme he and allen weisselberg put on paper and walked into trump's office that's a different question. the sessions line that we've been talking about, i mean as someone who investigated all these actors in this time period did that leap out you and did you know that? >> well, i wanted to say one thing and i can't believe i'm

about to say this in jeff sessions' defense, a lot of times people may say oh, don't worry, i can get this fixed, but, you know, if you were to ask the person at the department of justice, they would be like, what are you talking about? that's true for republican and democratic administration, whether people think they somehow have a line or there's sort of, you know, touting something. >> i guess the proof is in the pudding. if you read jeff berman's book, the doj is burning the phone lines to sdny to impact from the decision making to the lawyering to the words in cohen's sentencing memo. >> i would say on that is, i would focus more on bill barr than on jeff sessions. and politically, i disagree with so much of jeff sessions, but remember he got the boot. he was fired for understanding that the department of justice needs to be independent.

at the end of the day he understood something that is to the trump world, barr is a completely different animal and you can cite chapter and verse of the complete fund mental denigration of the department of justice from him, justice alito in the immunity argument, it is rampant that the former law and order party of the republican is long gone. >> quickly, cohen's testimony that pecker wanted reassurance that sessions would not prosecute him, gets to their state of mind they have knowledge they're committing crimes. >> absolutely. completely don't worry, because either it's jeff sessions or the dangling of pardons. >> pardons came up too. >> rang true for special counsel mueller's investigation. >> i have a million more questions and we have to sneak in a break. we're continuing to track,

though, what's happening inside the courtroom. a -- what's being described as an uneven cross-examination of michael cohen that's under way right now. plus, one speaker of the house, leader of the rnc and school of other contenders to be donald trump's number two vp pick descended on the courthouse in manhattan today to do the work the ex-president can't because of the court-mandated gag order. we'll dive into all of it over the next two hours. don't go anywhere. nywhere. raser and the cleaning power of dawn. watch it make soap scum here... disappear... and sprays can leave grime like that ultra foamy melts it on contact. magic. new ultra foamy magic eraser. a lot of new dry eye patients in my office tell me about their frequent dry eyes, which may point to dry eye disease. millions of americans were estimated to have it. they've tried artificial tears again and again, but the relief is temporary. xiidra can provide lasting relief. xiidra treats the signs and symptoms of dry eye disease. don't use if you're allergic to xiidra.

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tiles. it is more painful to admit that many times i ignored my conscience and acted loyal to a man i should not have. sitting here today, it seems unbelievable that i was so mesmerized by donald trump that i was willing to do things for him that i knew were absolutely wrong. for that reason, i have come here to apologize to my family, to my government, and to the american people. accordingly, let me now tell you about mr. trump. i got to know him very well, working very closely with him for more than ten years as his executive vice president and special counsel, and then as personal attorney when he became president. >> so suzanne, he went through the whole story of how he came to be trump's guy, and we talked

yesterday about how he felt when he successfully, you know, slayed for the boss, which is sort of what he evoked. today was almost bleak. the remorse. it felt to me like the real -- i saw -- maybe because i know him, i grade on a curve, i saw a real owning up and leveling up to a life in some ways ruined. he can't be a lawyer anymore when asked. i think blanche was doing this, do you get rich on your podcast. he's a podcaster because he can't practice law because that's a consequence of being a convicted felon. i wonder, i know there's a lot to work with on his credibility. that's not where todd blanche is spending his time. court is over for the day. cohen has another day to pep. do you think blanche is the guy doing this again when back in session. >> i do. i don't think they will switch anything out mid game.

but maybe more of a strategy coming in thursday morning. i have to tell you, i agree it was hard to listen to the end of the direct because he -- you know he's broken. we can see him. he's broken. but to hear that conversation he had with his family in 2018, where, you know, i don't know who in his family, but it was his son or daughters or his wife asked him, why are you hanging on to this loyalty? and this moment he had where he finally said i realized i had to listen to them and let it go. like it was just almost like he just couldn't be wrong about donald trump and it was destroying his life. i thought that moment was really striking. the other moment i found very striking was, and it ended up getting cut off and they had to narrow some of the question, but they let him go for a little bit when he talked about the ankle bracelet when he was supposed to -- >> i want to play some of that. this is what cohen said about

going to solitary, which is still i think the biggest bar scandal that no one pays attention to. so i was on furlow, which is the way that institution had returned me home waiting to meet with a company called geo, getting fitted with an ankle bracelet, going from prison to home confinement. quote, i was finally given a date and supposed to the following day head to the bronx to sign the paperwork and to do the installation of the ankle bracelet. instead, i received a phone call from an individual by the name of adam pekula at 500 pearl street, area of the southern district of new york, and i'm told i need to go there instead of up to the bronx. we go there. and we're brought into an office with adam pekul and the supervisor and give us a two paige document supposed to locate the federal monitoring agreement. it does not look like ale from document to me and my friend

draft and the first paragraph is a broad paragraph of first amendment violations. i'm not allowed to speak to the press. blanche objects. mr. cohen, did the agreement prevent grew speaking and writing publicly. michael cohen, yes. when you were presented the agreement did you question it? i did. prosecutor, as a result of questioning it were you sent back to prison? michael cohen, yes. when you went to prison where were you sent? back to solitary confinement. goes to get fitted for an ankle bracelet, went to bill barr's sdny asking him to sign a paper so he won't write a book, and he goes into solitary. >> this is where you find out he's falling down a rabbit hole. >> the federal judge who said this is improper and let him out. and said this should not have happened. but, you know, i have to say, welcome to bill barr's justice

department. >> where is horowitz, the only inspector general that doesn't get fired by donald trump. >> don't get me started. you're triggering me. >> stories like this didn't get appropriate attention or scrutiny. >> the inspector general system is flawed and an exhibit to that is the idea that you have inspector generals who were in place during the trump administration. they saw what bill barr was doing. nothing. >> only this one. i think horowitz is the only one still there. >> yeah. >> this guy in charge when this happened. does this happen at sdny? >> no. to be clear i don't put this on the prosecutors necessarily. this was a bureau of prisons decision that came with orders up on high. i don't think this was the prosecutors having anything to do with this. i also think that this really shows you the book ends. we heard earlier in the day, we saw those e-mail exchanges with

robert costello who said i'm rudy giuliani's guy, we're going to have these back channels and one where he's president of the united states, so you'll be taken care of. it's all going to be okay. >> this is -- >> sleep well. >> you have friends in high places. see those messages and know this is when you're on his good side. you see the flip side of when you flip what happens. he will make sure his justice department will take care of you and retaliate. and, so i thought that moment was such a powerful moment because you really saw like wow, you know, donald trump is vicious. he is vindictive and going to use the government to do his bidding. >> i want to ask you about the oval office meeting. this also was today. i think that the missed opportunity may be again, not a lawyer, the cross comes out, this guy is a scoundrel, you lose this stuff. because it wasn't wowing anybody, the jury looking yawny

towards the end, this is -- i want to show you cohen describing the oval office meeting not from court today. let me read it. this is how cohen describes it. picture the scene in february of 2017 one month into his presidency, i, michael cohen, am visiting president donald trump in the oval office for the first time. it is truthfully awe inspiring. he's showing me around, pointing to different paintings and says me something to the effect of, don't worry, michael. your january and february reimbursement checks are coming, they were fedexed from new york and takes a while to get through the system. i received the first check for the reimbursement of $70,000. i thought when they put up all of the checks is that your invoice, your check, yes, was it fraudulent, yes. they did it for all 12. it was powerful. >> it was, and there was one e-mail is that righted it off, where michael cohen actually saying says, can you remind me, jeff, what the amount was each

month. >> right. >> i'm going, that's not how lawyers bill. lawyers -- that's right. >> provide services know what the services cost. >> yeah. >> and usually there are time sheets, sometimes, as andrew knows, down to the 6 minute increments here's the work and amount of time i spent on it. donald trump scrutinizes his bills and wants to know how much he's paying for what, and the idea that, you know, it's just how much was it again, there's no retainer agreement, there's no time sheet, it's just this invoice that says legal services for the month and they don't know the amount like it was just so striking. it's not how these look. again you have two jurors on that jury they know this is not what legal services invoices look like. >> chris hayes made the point last night we have enough testimony in the record undisputed no objections about how tight he was with money. this is the reimbursement for

the hush money plus more than 2 x. trump didn't overpay anyone for anything. chris hayes' point there's no way allen weisselberg didn't show him those numbers and explain why it was 130 plus. >> right. >> weisselberg again worked for fred trump. he's been around a while here. and for donald trump, right, and seeing these numbers here and being the micro manager that he is, i think there is acknowledgement by michael cohen today he did no work for him in the year of 2017, so there was nothing to actually bill him for in reality and, in fact, he did more work for him in the year of 2018 when he was trying to work through arbitration action against stormy daniels, so for michael cohen, telling this jury very explicitly like you can see all of the writings on this bill here, but i didn't do anything in 2017 as the invoice suggested. >> you're going to hear the state say, michael cohen has told you that, of course, he told donald trump and you know what, he had 130,000 reasons to

tell him because as he said, i wanted to get repaid. >> yeah. >> so he actually had 130,000 to get repaid and because it was going to be income he had 260,000 reasons to do it. and the same thing for allen weisselberg. what would be his motive to not tell him? i mean that's -- at the end of the day, that's the issue in the case. all of these other things go away. it is the defense has to be allen weisselberg knew, michael cohen knew, and they did not tell donald trump. that's -- that is just -- that's implausible and goes against all logic and the direct testimony. >> and trump's own words entered into evidence from his ghost writers in his books he loves to hand out. a quick break for us and we'll all be right back. nd we'll all be right back. [ phone ringing ] george, can you get that? george! agh! george. hello george, can you mute the music?

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he behaves exactly the way that i described him. he's like a mob boss. if you cross him, you're going to get it. and he's going to inflict as much pain and as much damage as he possibly can. the problem is, you can't -- you can't damage me anymore. as i write in my prologue. i'm broken broken. to be away from my family for what? to lose my law license, my business, finances, my family's happiness, you know, what do you think that you're going to do with your ridiculous tweets? by the way, you know, n this tweet of today, now, as i

pointed out he doesn't even spell properly. liar is l-i-a-r at least have the decency to spell it right. >> he's blunt. i'm broken, broken. that was michael cohen. an interview with rachel maddow. joining our coverage david kelly, served as chief of sdny's organized crime and terrorism unit and represented former fbi director jim comey after the 2016 election. a treat to talk to you. i wonder if you're surprised by how many overt references to how similar to a mob boss donald trump is. if you're surprised so much of that, i mean i thought maybe a subtle illusion to, you know how it is, they tell you without telling you, but it became overt and i wonder if you thought that was effective? >> i think it is effective. the question here is about him directing activity, right.

the paradigm for the mob boss is that he directs everything without having his fingerprints on anything and i think that's one of the threads here, one of the themes for this case. >> david, mob prosecutions, at least in the movies, are often centered around financial crimes. it seems that this is almost textbook. the documents, if they could speak r yelling i did it, i did it. i wonder, as the direct ended and cross started, where you think things stand in terms of the argument that's been made before the jury? >> i got to tell you i've been following reports of the cross-examination of cohen, and i'm really unmoved by it. i think that the most important part of the case came before cohen. i think they had to put cohen on the stand, but so long as they have corroborated everything that he is going to say, i think they basically have a very strong circumstantial case, and now they have some direct evidence about it, but there's so much -- there is so much corroboration of cohen i think, you know, you just have to, as a

prosecutor, accept all your vulnerabilities with the witness here and corroborate everywhere you can and they've done that. i've put on the witness stand the only eyewitness to a murder over medicated schizophrenic who was an alcoholic and stoned at the time he saw it but because we were able to corroborate everything it worked. i think not put michael cohen in the same category but the principle is the same, so much corroboration i think all these things are hitting on cross is just kind of water off a duck's back. >> 25 visits, that's how many times michael cohen went, once alvin bragg became the district attorney, i don't know how many times he visited before that, it's clear to me there was a reverse engineering, he was probably asked do you have any documents, do you have any e-mail, who else was in the room, and to your point all those other people and all those other documents, testified before cohen did. one of the things that surprised me, though, and this may be from

covering the political moment from the outside, was just how mob-y rudy giuliani's attorney and friend mr. costello was in handling michael cohen while trump was president. he's clearly talking about trump, talking to rudy, who is relaying it, rudy representing in the mueller probe. do the details fill in a period we knew about or were those disturbing? >> i don't think they're disturbing. i think, you know, again, it goes back to the mob boss thing somebody is, you know, directing traffic and really directing things and have other people run things for them. the fact of the problem here is that the people running things for him, like bob costello and so forth, were a little too cute and so ultimately the buffer they were supposed to be, proves to be not a buffer at all, but pretty transparent. >> stormy daniels' attorney said yesterday on cnn she wore a

bulletproof vest, her home address has been publicized in right wing media. i wonder what you've done in the past or your thoughts are how you protect witnesses in high-profile cases like this? >> we have the witness protection program in mob cases where we send people away. security is always a tremendous issue, particularly, you know, depending on what case is. something like this where you have somebody who has, you know, a gag order because they are out there essentially implicitly -- others to intimidate witnesses that's a really concern. it's an unfortunate theme in this case, but it's there and real and needs to be, you know, vigilantly pursued and protected against. >> clearly the -- there's no remedy for the loophole trump seems to have exploited to have all of his political allies wear matching outfits and dot violating of the gag order for him? >> yeah. i think you can only go so far.

i think judge merchan has done a terrific job of navigating that effectively. but i think when it comes to witness safety, there is no fail-safe method of protecting against anybody who is looking to intimidate or -- a witness or obstruct a case in any sort of way. >> let me ask you about the underlying crime. this doesn't need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, but every witness has testified to the intense motive trump had between the release of the "access hollywood" tape and the payout of $130,000 to stormy daniels of a singular concern about his candidacy. we have him in his own voice, by the c-span guy. how would you assess their effectiveness in that narrative? >> i think it's been very effective and i mean i was thinking the other day, it's very easy to do the math here. it all adds up, temporally and logically as to why he is doing this and why he would go to these extreme efforts to keep

stormy daniels' story quiet. you know, we've talked a bit at the beginning and andrew was talking about this a couple weeks ago, about the dual motives here. sure, there was -- could have been concerns about the family, but as it's unfolded, it really is a complete in the shadows side of the story, and i think the motive and intent here driven by what was going on in the campaign has been very clear from the government's case. i think it has not suffered in any way under attack by cross-examination. >> david kelly, always a privilege to get to talk to you. thank you very much for joining us on this historic day. we're going to sneak in a quick break and be right back with everybody. everybody. it's a beautiful... ...day to fly.

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work with principal so we can help you with a plan that's right for him. you know what i'm saying? let our expertise round out yours. s i was going to ask you to pick up on this point that david kelly was making about the treatment of witnesses. trump had his supporters dress alike. it was clownish to me. >> when you were asking david that, i was thinking there's not an organized crime case that i have ever ever done,s that was bread and butter in the eastern new york, lots of organized crime case cans from the main witness goes on and away you see in the back of the courtroom, the defendants' buddies, associates and soldiers in the crime family, sitting there to show a show of support. and also typically in the line

of sight of the witness to try to sort of rattle them. i was just like, really? like i was like the last time i saw this was an organized crime case. jim comey early on was the first person to say about donald trump and his insistence on loyalty over loyalty to the constitution that he thought it was a mob boss. i still remember the first time i heard that, i i remember thinking come on. like that's too much. and he's right. i'm not saying that the murders and kind of things that organized crime does, but the way in which they operate outside of the rules of law and expecting to loyalty, jim really had had had it right. >> is that what it looked like inside the courtroom? >> they had their eyes on michael cohen and susan the sbhier time that questioning was taking place. the irony to a certain extent of it was by my count, michael cohen said today ep ten different times that the reason that he continued to lie for donald trump was to, quote,

protect trump. and then you see the likes of speaker mike johnson, the speakerer of the house here in lower manhattan come out and do what donald trump can't do and attack the witness michael cohen. out there in front of cameras outside of the courthouse, said that michael cohen was doing this for revenge mission here. just the contrast of where one man was, who wasn't even in 2016 in the u.s. congress and now eight years later, he's out in front of these cameras for donald trump. it's really just the journey of donald trump and the republican party. >> i just think the gag order came to mind when i say saw them parading in. they are saying what donald trump can't. they need to show their fidelity. they have been asked to come. that's what he wants. we're seeing them being able to say the things that he can't say. >> it's interesting to take the

mob theory a step further. we saw today there was a message where he's referred to as the big boss, the big boss approved the statement to the press stormy daniels. and the fact that they are referring to hims a a boss and the fact that it was clear that they had to get his approval before anybody is going to the press, before any steps are being taken, donald trump has to say yes. and that's the theme throughout this whole case. who ordered the code red? this was something that our colleague said that i thought was brilliant. did colonel order the code red from "a few good men." that was so powerful in seeing that in the documents themselves. we heard it in the testimony. it is very mob-like. and i think the jury will get it that that is the issue and they will get the answer right. >> to your point, the code red comes when they put him on the stand it's precisely why trump won't take the stand. he wouldn't be able to help

saying that. >> exactly. >> it's a perfect move. you'll all be be back tomorrow? we'll say to be continued. the best of the best. our thanks for spending the hour with us. we have only halfway done on this huge day of news. we have much more breaking news coverage on what has been a truly extraordinary unexpected day. michael cohen finishing strong on direct. trump's team getting off to a bumpy start on cross. we'll have much more on the other side of a short break. don't go anywhere a short break. don't go anywher t to help ease you back in to the dating scene. that includes having a smile you feel good about. fortunately, aspen dental specializes in dentures and implants made just for you. and with flexible financing, you don't need to sacrifice quality work for a price that fits your budget. at $0 down plus 0% interest if paid in full in 18 months. helping our patients put their best smile forward.

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. mr. trump directed me to use my own personal funds from a home equity line of credit to avoid any money being traced back to him that could negatively impact his campaign, and i did that too without bothering to consider whether that was improper, much less whether it was the right thing to do or how it would impact me, my family, or the public. and i am going to jail, in part, because of my decision to help mr. trump hide that payment from the american people before they voted a few days later. >> that is the michael cohen who showed up in court today. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york on day that has not turned out the way anyone thought it would. it's opinion a day about consequences, specifically consequences for the ex-president's incredibly loyal

former fixer on full dispolice before the jury, ones like going to prison, that trump so far has alluded in the last hour. today's court session came to a close ending with michael cohen's bumpy cross-examination by trump lawyer todd blanche. we expect to pick up on thursday when court resumes. blanche's line of questioning that started out hot as our friend just described it. confrontational, but never really landed. sort of like an awkward comedy skit. never setting up any sort of cohesive nar neverlanding two blows in a row, getting objected to over and over again. todd blanche questioned michael cohen about comments he made on social media, about lies cohen admitted to under direct examination, about cohen's past affection and devotion to donald trump to which cohen responded, quote, at that time, i was knee

deep into the cult of donald trump. but all that drama following the direct examination earlier today where the drama really happened. cohen was able to establish trump being at the center of the paper. and the reimbursements that he received for 12 months after paying stormy daniels $130,000 to keep quiet about her sexual encounter with donald trump a decade prior ahead of the 2016 election. cohen places his ex-boss directly at the scene of the crime. or in this case as the guy directing the crime. the lawyer for the prosecution, asking cohen to state why he paid $130,000 to stormy daniels to which michael cohen replies, quote, to ensure that the story would not come out. would not affect mr. trump's chances of becoming president of the united states. prosecutor then asked at whose direction michael cohen paid stormy daniels.

trump's michael cohen replies, which brings us back to the idea of consequences. michael cohen would plead guilty and go to prison for his own description putting loyalty to donald trump over the law. he faced a penalty for the crimes had committed for donald trump. soon a jury will decide if cohen's ex-boss should face any consequences as well. that's where we start the hour. sol is of our most favorite reporters outside the courthouse. yasmin vossoughian is back. lucky for us, a full table, former attorney and deputy assistant attorney general harry litman is back. law professor melissa murray is back. and former executive editor special correspondent for the holywood reporter lockland cartwright is back. tell me about -- let's start with the cross.

that's what was happening until about 35 minutes ago. tell me how this sort of bombed. >> it did bomb. blanche kind of came in hot and he kind of had this full frontal attack about some things that michael cohen had put up on tiktok. and you were like this is the aggressive machine gun approach that he would want want. and then we were left with thismy ran dering type of dance that suggests that michael cohen had gone rogue. not to comment in the media and put anything out there. it was almost like they were trying to set that up as a premise for going rogue with donald trump. and then there was almost like this other sort of side conversation -- >> i didn't even track that. they were trying to establish he didn't do what he was told to do. >> that was my read on it. michael cohen went rogue because the d.a. told him he would have followed instructions. he's going rogue with donald trump with these payments and the agreements.

the other thing that i kind of found interesting that i thought they were trying to set up here was that he was obsessed with donald trump. he had this kind of obsession and was jolted by trump and he's out for revenge. both lineses just didn't hit. i was confused. i do get confused easily, but the jury was more puzzled than i think anyone. >> the times blog has the jury yawning and looking unmoved. i want to ask you -- again, it doesn't matter what they were trying to do, because the reporting is now in. it didn't land. what is your sense of what has been squandered? todd blanche, i'm sure, will regroup and practice and will have another chance, but what when a cross of of the star witness doesn't land, how much have you lost with the jury? >> the first 45 minutes of the cross-examination you could have said this two months ago, the single most important block of time in the entire trial for

them. and they could have come on and meanderered. he was inconsistent. he seemed to be kind of groping at one topic and then going to another. he did get interrupted with many objections, each of which broke his rhythm. and when you -- he scored a couple points. there was one time where cohen quibbled a little on the difference between something something inaccurate and lying and he pushed him to the wall, but when you put it against this being the opportunity cost of this exact examination and the beginning of this examination, what they have lost is incalculable. >> i thought the prosecution landed, in some ways, the dirtiest version of michael cohen in his own words. yes, i committed crimes.

yes, i lied. and so i i wonder if that tripped him up or what do you think happened? sgri wanted to speak to that because convention until wisdom, first of all, would have put cohen earlier so that wouldn't be the jurors' last memory, and certainly would have said you tick off his problems somewhere in the middle. instead, they made it a kind of morality play. and at the very end, they went through and with not overstated, i regret that i bullied. i regret that i lied. i regret that the american people didn't have information because of me. it was really effective. they actually ended with the worst part, but showed him as not a redeemed man, but a contrite one. and the jury, without a doubt, was more focused at that final 45 minutes than they were any time in the trial. and therefore, when blanche got up and couldn't get rhythm, the contrast was very distinct.

>> just to say, i think the prosecution was very smart in laying out the redemption art for michael cohen for the last week and a half. he was on trial before he even took the stand. and everyone had talked last week about what a terrible guy michael cohen was. so when michael cohen came in on monday and again today, he didn't have to do that much to redeem himself. so he did have the be contrite and then we can move on. because it had already been prebutted. we knew he was a dirty, filthy guy going into it. the prosecution let that come out first. ask is more importantly, the prosecution has said all along, michael cohen is not the star here. the documents are the star. michael cohen, stormy daniels, all these other people, they are icing to corroborate the documents and the documents are the case. that's the meat of their case. >> i have covered michael cohen. he's very available to the

media. that came up. michael cohen was caricatured. he wasn't just malign. he was character cherted. we'll have to duoback and study this. but the prosecution got insults about michael cohen from everybody. keith davidson, he was the second or third witness talking about how anowing he was. talking about how persistent he was. hope hicks saying he wasn't a generous guy. and whether they knew it or not, all of them were bolstering the prosecution's case because they didn't need him to be generous. they needed him to be the opposite of generous. they needed michael cohen to be the guy that never laid out $10,000 unless he was damn sure he was going to get payback. they needed him to be a guy who only did things for donald trump's praise because that puts donald trump in the middle of the criminal scheme. and they seem to have played the trump team completely. i thought blanche was going to get up and go at evidence of the

criminality because it was so obvious these two days of tail light. instead it seemed like a flat rookie night at open mic club. >> reporter: it's interesting. i have been kind of seeing this is and explaining it as stages of grief. they haven't gotten into the timeline. with direct they went through the timeline. on this date, in january of 201, you had this meeting with donald trump and trump tower. in february of 2017, you went to the white house. they have not yet gotten to the part, and ill i'll be interested to see what happens tomorrow, as to poking holes in the timeline. instead it's been this meandering over the last two and a hof hours of stages of grief. you had an ax to grind with donald trump. you were after him. you were media hungry. you went opt msnbc and cbs and tiktok. how many podcasts have you done? how many times have you talked

about donald trump. every single time it seemed so. you lied, you lied. ha that is what they have been doing over the last two and a half hours. to which where do they go next? i think one of the interesting things is with regards to michael cohen's testimony and how he answered things, because you know michael cohen. i have interviewed michael cohen as well on my show. i remember interviewing him about the trump civil fraud trial. in this conversation that i had with him, i said, listen, you were a part of the way in which these properties were assessed and overvaluing donald trump's properties. what do you have to say to that. you were a party to this. and it's never something that michael cohen really wanted to necessarily admit outright. just saying, yeah, i was and now i changed my tune. and we did see that today in his testimony where he said it sounds like something i would say. yeah, sure, i guess it's something i said. i guess so.

i will agree on that one. it will be interesting to see if he changes his tone tomorrow the, especially as they get away more from attacking michael cohen's personality, despite the fact that it was already set up right by the testimony of keith davidson, who is said he didn't want to work with michael cohen. he was too hard to work with, so they brought in dylan howard. if they get away more from the testimony about michael cohen's personality and more towards kind of the facts, the timeline and poking holes and falsifying the documents. >> i didn't hear him say one word about the documents. they haven't gone near it. i have that part of the transcript in front of me. michael cohen's first podcast he the called donald trump a, quote, borish cartoonist massagist. >> had said that line over and over again. >> he referred to him as a

cheeto dusted cartoon villain. sounds like something i would say. blanche says, do you recall you began talking about how you wanted trump to be convicted of a crime. do you hope this man is in prison, that sounds right. what do we think the point was of that? >> i got to say let's remember how he started this off. which was blanche saying you called me a crying little blank. he objected to that. that was out of the gate. and he said, that sounded like something i would say. again, it's speaking to this kind of you have an ax to grind, you're media hungry, you're just saying what you want to say to get the applause of the media and the folks that are watching this whole thing. it's all a show. s this is the case that they are

building more of this -- i guess, kind of public persona case or marketing case versus what should be happening in the courtroom, which is about the documents. you and i have talked about this many times. this is going to come down to the documents. the star witness of this case is not michael cohen. so much of his testimony, especially during direct, was about admitting evidence. it wasn't even necessaily about the anecdotes that michael cohen was telling about donald trump's involvement in those conversations saying, yes, pay stormy daniel, i'm going to pay you pack. it was about admitting those documents. it was about admitting so many important documents that bank document in which alan said we're going to gross up to $420,000. then they talked about it on january 17th. how are they going to poke holes in that portion of the case? sure, they have talked about the fact that michael cohen loves to go on tiktok. we know that. he wears a t-shirt with donald trump behind bars. we know that. he loves the media. he admitted today he loves going

on television. we all know that. how are they going to poke holes in the documents and poke holes in the timeline? they haven't shown us how because they haven't gotten into it. maybe it's because they don't have a plan for that. >> i thought it was an effective legal strategy to put up all 12 of the fraud invoices and then to say after each one, was this fake, yes. >> i was just going to try to jump in. because a moment the jury was engaged. when i looked at them and they were gripped to their screens was this series of phoney invoices that went up. and michael cohen was asked was this paid to retainer. no, ma'am. do you recognize the signature. and they did over and over and over again. and you would think people would get bored with it because they know the obvious answer. the jury was glued to this. it was so effective. >> and what i thought was interesting is that there were three people with power. some were signed by don jr.

all were signed by alan weisselberg. some were signed by donald trump. because either you can sit there and say how is it 34 felony counts. ha they establish is each one was an act of fraud. i thought that was dramatic saying who signed this one. >> eric trump who spent a lot of time liking down was very much looking up when that was going on. >> what do you think jurors thought of that? >> that's something we don't know. with can talk about what the first 45 minutes or what lands with us, but the jurors are 12 people who have just learning about each other. we don't know how this is landing with them. i just did jury duty last week. it's a weird place. lots of things happen. you become familiar. i wasn't picked. but even there you see these weird group dynamics. >> we're seeing seem to be pretty self-aware of the kind of tasks. you don't see them coming in and

chatting or whatever. soldiers of justice marching in and marching back. i want to say one quick thing though in fairness out of sympathy for the defense. it goes with what we were saying, the big points they can score, he says these things and sounds like something i would the say and has an ax to grind. those are so straight forward. what they need to go farther. as we were ending, trying out something that i think will not land, saying that he really changed his mind, only because he was trying to curry favor to get a lesser sentence. it was then rather than -- >> but this is the point that everyone at home has to remember. the burden here is on the government. the government has the huge uphill burden to proof guilt. i'm not saying they haven't done a great job laying this out with the documents. what i am saying is all the defense has to do is poke holes. >> sort of. >> we're going to get in a

fight. >> what do you think? no, here's what i want to say. they need a little more. it's true that if they really think about it seriously, but they need a narrative. there's always this battle at the end with defense and prosecuting attorneys beyond a reasonable doubt. and prosecution said beyond a reasonable doubt. we need a reason. and i think so it could still be with the documents, but they have been papted more and more. >> they have started this idea, and this goes back to something the prosecution did with voir dire. the prosecution asked the jurors, you understand what it's like to have a hitman. but he's not the one pulling the trigger. you understand how that works. they are setting it up. the entire narrative is all of this happened but donald trump didn't orchestrate. if.

>> he's been more conservative. let me show you when infidelity is the topic. and the subject is a presidential candidate. one is john edwards. this has come up, and i thought this came up effectively. and listen, they are human beings behind this, but to the motive, to the thing that makes these felonies, this is what trump is avoiding. and i thought that michael cohen coming back to his sort of ending with i was a bully, i did whatever i had to do. that's at the center of it. thavs what he was trying to protect donald trump from. >> we talked about this many a time. it's those moments after the act less access is hollywood tape,

and dylan howard didn't have that much interest in it. but all of a sudden, there's intense value in this because they need to take this story off the market. why, we know why. because stormy daniels told us why. it's incredibly evident. this was a plot, a conspiracy to sbeer fear with the 2016 election. >> all true. and what's left out of fairness is was he somehow absent minded in signing the checks. a lot of circumstantial evidence. maybe the jury will had laugh at it too. it's plebty of instances. hands on the nuclear cloeds codes. but when it's his pennies, we have had no idea what the jury is going to do. in terms of the evidence that's been presented to them, it's trump in his own words talking about how he's in charge of every dime that goes out. it's saying i was fired for a

day because i didn't haggle down all the bills. it's cohen describing how he gets the job and he gets the job because he dpets all the vendors to trump university to take 20% of what is owed to them. this to be the first time trump spends not just what he owes the adult film actress, they grossed it up to hide it. >> it's david pecker saying michael cohen couldn't take somebody to lunch without trump's approval. >> we're going to sneak in a quick break. so much more to get to on this uncan want anded day of examine in the irs ever criminal trial of an american ex-president. we'll be back in a minute. plus the damage caused to our democracy and the rule of law. but another trump ally oddly dressed similarly at the courthouse today. democracy expert joins our conversation later in the broadcast. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick. don't go anywhere.

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this whole thing about flipping, i know all about flipping for 30 or 40 years. i have been watching flippers. everything is wonderful and then they get ten years in jail and flip on the next highest one is. it almost should be outlaud. it's not fair. if somebody defrauded a bank and going to get 20 years in jail, but if you can say something bad about donald trump, you'll go down to 2 years or 3 years, which is the deal he mead. >> it ought to be outlawed. it's one of the bedrocks of the criminal justice system is. it's amazing. >> all up and down.

every trial. >> put your good fellas thinking caps on. this was entered into evidence today. this is about cohen and a back channel to donald trump. prosecutor susan hofen engineer, what did you understand to be commune indicating here? michael cohen, this is part of the pressure campaign that even is lying to you. that you are still regarded. the president still supports you. do not speak. do not listen to what any of the journalists or anybody are saying and stay in the fold. don't flip. don't speak. don't cooperate. what did you understand he was telling you? michael cohen, not to. the attorney, what did you understand him to be saying to you in terms of, if you really want things to happen, if if you want to make things known, you should let me know. what did you understand that to be about? michael cohen, again, him,

rudy's friend being a back channel. back channel to who? to the president via rudy giuliani. so rudy was representing trump in the mueller investigation. this time mr. costello it's like i feel like the genera of movies is so etc. seemed. it's like a bad mob movie, but we had a sense from the outside this was happening because basted on the things trump was saying in interviews and twitter. it's amazing to hear it in cohen's testimony. >> it's flat out obstruction. and the only thing that surprised me is cohen said this made him feel better. when i read it, i was thinking of de niro saying you g down there, there's so the coats for you and he knows he's going to get whacked. it seems so clearly through costello, michael cohen said costello was sleazy and whatever. you can imagine how sleazy he was. it struck me as being complete ly mob driven from the start.

it was flat out obstruction. >> this also -- this testimony isn't necessarily about trump being in the room for the documents. but it gets at the panic. the risk, the flashing red light that cohen represents once he's cooperating. could you see the jury during any of this? >> i think that that sleep well tonight, your friends in high places, when that was read, i think everyone on the courtroom was just like, what was that? >> and that's an e-mail. explain that. >> that's an e-mail from bob costello. >> that's rudy's lawyer. >> and then goes on to say some positive comments about you in the white house. it's just not even this underlying kind of we're watching you. it's just all they are in writing. it was just amaze med at how bla sant it was. >> unlike pecker and cohen, who

turned to signal, costello just just used e-mail. i'm just going to e-mail you thinkmy threats from the white house. it was amazing. >> reporter: one of the first questions also that you didn't read was susan asking, did you tell costello the truth about stormy danielss. did you say that donald trump had sex with stormy daniels, and michael cohen said no. he said because i didn't trust him because he would tell friend. his friend is rudy giuliani. who is his friend's client at the hittime, the president of the united states. just to give brief background and you talked about it briefly, but important to say, costello, a friend of rudy giuliani, it seems as if donald trump and rudy giuliani were trying to get michael cohen to the get to retain his attorney and he did not do that. and through away you'd think would be a back channel communication, but instead drew these e-mails what do you want

tell my friend to communicate to his client. the conversation, let's just remember the timeline. in april when michael cohen's apartment was raised, he had a conversation with donald trump at the time and harry just mentioned this. donald trump essentially saying i'm paraphrasing here, i support you, i'm loyal to you, we're going to be okay. we're going to figure it out. i'm president of the united states. michael cohen is saying i feel pretty good. the president of the united states is supporting me. that was the last conversation he ever had with donald trump. fast forward five months or so, and that is when michael cohen pled guilty in a court of law just down the street from where i'm standing. by the way, you know who made me do it? the sitting president of the united states. >> here's him telling that story to congress in september of 2020. >> last fall, i pled guilty in federal court to tellnys for the benefit of at the direction of,

and in coordination with individual number one. for the record, individual number one is president donald j. trump. it is painful to admit that i was motivated by ambition at times. it is even more painful to admit that many times i ignored my conscious and acted loyal to a man when i should not have. sitting here today, it seems unbelievable that i was so mesmerized by donald trump that i was willing to do things for him that i knew were absolutely wrong. >> what the prosecution was able to get from cohen was this self-reflection it's not the easiest thing to do. but he did go there.

in that final chunk of his direct. and because of the uneven/weakness of the beginning of the cross, i think that is sort of the most impactful thing that the jurors heard today. >> i think it certainly was an impactful thing that the jury heard today. i don't know because everybody knows michael cohen prth well. during the testimony from hope hicks and keith davidson, if they bought that michael cohen was apologizing to the american people because he cared about this country and he was worried about how that would land with the american people, but the fact that he was having a come to jesus moment about his lies, i think that was incredibly impactful. etc.s personally because on cross, there was so much meandering in the last two hours. to speak to the bigger crime of election interference, it's important to talk about while some dispute whether michael cohen should have been at the end of the prosecution's witnesses, it speaks to how it's tying so much of the testimony

together. what i mean by that is you heard michael cohen talk about how donald trump was worried about his poll numbers. hope hicks and madelyn testified to the fact that donald trump at the time when the "access hollywood" tape came out was worried about his family. i don't think anybody can really go on the record and say donald trump is a family man. we can say that by fact he doesn't seem to be a family man frrks what we know about publicly. they testified to the fact that had he was concerned about melania trump and his family. michael cohen said, in fact, it was different. he was concerned about his polling numbers. how it would land with women. and then you did hear hope hicks say he was concerned about women. he was concerned about his polling numbers, and then there was dylan hoard and keith davidson, who said, what have we done? all of this testimony coming together what was happening in the lead up to the election and why he was doing what he was doing. >> that brings you back into the story. what gets undone is mcdougal

bautz you talked to the "wall street journal." that has come up in the current testimony. >> correct. when that was referenced again today, the pieces that keep filling in for me, the thing with mcdougal payment, which is obviously different it's something we took care of in house. and then what spirals out later is that the stormy thing comes on when pecker says i won't be the bank. i won't continue with these payoffs. that's where michael cohen comes in. michael cohen has to be the one that takes out the loan and then makes this payment. >> what's amazing is that a lot of cohen's testimony was about how they were going to pay back the fee. and that's what he tapes him for. to reassure pecker that trump's good for the money. that's the one piece of trump sound that's been played. >> it never plays david pecker that tape. >> and never pays him a dime.

and sort of takes his victory lap and says, no, we don't know that. >> so worth underscoring this is really not what they teach you in prosecutor school. they did something very unconventional in ending with all his skeletons. it's something when you. >> do you think that threw blanche off? >> i think a lot of things threw him off. he's not a defense plaur. so he has experience as a former prosecutor, but i think this is his first high profile criminal trial. i think it showed. certainly in the ability to get into a ritzment and it's shown. i was very surprised that they did not take over cross for michael cohen today. i think that was a big mistake. >> cross is such a special skill. >> he bombed. so far. >> yeah. >> thank you for starting us off this hour.

stick around. when we come back, we have been talking about it. the speaker of the house, second in line to the presidency, he was down at the courthouse today to lead the cheering section for the disgraced ex-president and help him work around the gag order. now a stung but not surprising admission by one senator about what they were doing on purpose out loud in an interrue. we'll show it to you, next. l sht

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mike johnson, angel call christian, took a break to be in new york in person to watch a would be aud democrat face consequences for cheating on his wife and hiding it from the american people. it wouldn't make a lot of sense if the rest weren't familiar with how those on earth roll. the courthouse smile and wave, johnson performed this morning, so rem any sent of what michael cohen described in his testimony as an eagerness to please the boss and a top of the world feeling with being recognized by the boss. while some trump surrogates traveled to new york in their attempt to land a spot on his vp short list like seen here, speaker johnson's appearance today was less about political gain and perhaps more about political survival given his position among his more extreme colleagues. in the end it comes down to the

same thing. even as he defends himself and the secrets he works to hide from the american electorate, donald trump has the republican the party wrapped around his finger. joining us is ian bass is here. harry and melissa are with us. sometimes there are some suspense in these things. were they trying to go around the gag order? we had a confession from tommy tuberville. >> hopefully we have more and more senators in congress go up every day to represent him and be able to go out and overcome the gag order. that's one of the reasons we went. to speak our peace for president trump. >> i guess we love that he gives it to us. were you trying to go against the gag order and intimidate witnesses because trump can't? yes, sir, that's exactly what we were doing. we talk about the rule of law. the rule of law is the letter of the law. it's the spirit of the law. the spirit of the law doesn't say tommy tuberville can attack

the witness, but that's what the spirit of the law it. >> in some ways, perhaps we're lucky that these are the keystone crooks and they leave evidence of their crimes on the crime scene as tuberville alludes to doing there. one of the reasons they feel so brazen and comfortable doing that is because they are essentially constructing a protection racket against accountability. and that's the bigger picture, i think, about what's going on with these sort of pill gram grimmages to lower mabt. for years now, donald trump has been building a wall. but it's not a wall at the southern border. it's a wall around himself to protect himself from accountability. ask on january 6th, that wall, he had manned by proud boys and oath keepers and violent militias. today he's having that wall manned by the top republican elected officials in the country. in november, he's hoping that

wall will be manned by voters. but if he's successful in doing that, he will not have built a wall that will keep any foreigners out of the country. he will simply have built a wall that keeps americans out of power. he will have placed himself in the high castle surrounded by walls that don't allow any of us to have a say in governing and have built for him an impenetrable fortress. >> it feels like the project is farther along than most realize and think we're just choosing between a normal republican and a normal democrat. how do you see it? >> well, one of the ironies about this is i think one of the driving causes of the democracy crisis that we're currently experiencing is a sense that the system is rigged. that there isn't really accountability for the powerful or for the wealth chris.

i think it goes back to the financial crisis in 2007, 2008 when i think the fundamental social copact in america was broken in many peoples' eyes. we had had lived in a country that the perception was that if you worked hard and you played by the rules, you could get ahead. and i think one of the reactions to the financial crisis was that people who broke the rules, who got to the front of the line, but who were rich and powerful didn't face consequences. and those playing by the rules were the ones who suffered. fundamentally fractured the social compound. donald trump took advantage that saying the system is rigged. there's one set of rouch rules for the rich and powerful. he accused hillary clinton say ing if you had done what she had done, you would have gotten in trouble, but she doesn't because she's rich and powerful. the person who is most benefitted from that dual tier set of rules is donald trump, who because he was born rich and powerful has gotten away with

every violation over the course of his life and achieved the presidency. but the danger is he is not actually running to fix this problem. he's running to prove it exists. >> the piece of it that i think has changed in the most stark manner is this is all about trump not wanting his voters to know that he had had sex with an adult film actress in 2006. now, he's running on being an insurrectionist. it's such a little window into how he thought the rules applied to him with women voters in '16. he's running as someone who has to criminalize doctors who perform boorgss abortions and the women who seek them. >> it's a totally different world. i sometimes think if i had been in a dark place and still at american media and coming into this election year, what were some of the crazed front pages we could cook up. i couldn't even conceive some of this stuff. and thissen entourage that keeps

coming through, the core squad, the nightclub, we look back and this person and this person, they just keep coming. it's gotten absurd. they are wearing matching outfits and speaking on queue. they go out and do the press conference and come back in. it's this theater they are performing. >> it's not lost on anyone that they are doing what trump can't do, attacking the witness. >> ventriloquists for trump violating the gag order because your father can't do it. >> i will never unhear that. >> ian is right. there's something profoundly disturbing about this. in 2016 he does think that all of the consequences that would apply to a john edwards, to anyone ls else would apply to him too and now it's brazen.

he's an oath breaking insurrectionist and these elected members of congress still show up because they are literally so mesmerized by him. so eager to be in his tlauls, so eager to be his side kick and number two. >> and and apparently not even conscious of what they are doing is breaking the rule of law. they are proud about it. >> we have to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. o sneak in k break. we'll be right back. what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing.

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>> she has a lot of fear. she really does. she was concerned about the security coming into new york. she wore a bullet proof vest every day until she got to the courthouse. before she came sunday, she cried herself to sleep. she was paralyzed with fear. not of taking the stand or telling her story, but what some nut might do to her. i'm concerned about it as well. >> that was stormy daniels' lawyer. it is comical the way trump's stooges act. they succeed in making people feel frightened and afraid because they gin up his supporters to hate anyone who threatens him and that includes witnesses in this trial. >> yeah, i mean, that's both a

deliberate strategy with respect to individual people like stormy daniels, but it's a broader risk for our society as a whole. the irony here is the politicians who are traipsing over to lower manhattan are many of the same politicians who have been decrying why that see as chaos around the country, whether they called it the chaos of the protests of 2020 or the chaos they say is taking place on college campuses or the chaos that's defiling the subway systems, they're all about being against chaos. in our society the way you hold back chaos is through our institutions and law enforcement institutions, the exact institutions they're undermining of credibility. i don't know what they think they're doing, but if you want to unleash chaos, attack the institutions that reign it in which is what trump is

contributing to. >> melissa, there's a haphazard nature to the way trump supporters function, but to ian's point there's been a methodical diminishing in the faith in the rule of law among trump's base. you see it in the brazenness in which they say, hell, yeah, we're going around the gag order. >> historically there have been limited checks on executive authority. impeachment used to be a check. it's now a paper tiger. the media has been debunked as being extremely liberal or conservatively and biased. the judicial system, donald trump has talked about obama judges and trump judges and suggested that the supreme court, or at least some of them, are in the bag for him. ian is right. you want to unleash chaos, you have to diminish the electorate's faith in the

institutions that soldier and bolster democracy. when those are gone, all you have left is this lone figure, the man in the high tower and you have to put your faith in that. >> it's amazing that trump who was such a mess that he needed david pecker to survive, he had to make up stories about ted cruz and marco rubio to get through this nomination is annihilating american institutions. >> he was going down to the apple store to download things to communicate. it's absolutely wild how we got here. >> it feels like, look, we're here focussed on a set of facts and will he be convicted? then the window opens, maybe because the senators traipse through and you get the broader vantage point on what's going on and what's at stake and from that little scenario all of a

sudden you -- you know, there's a terrifying horizon. that happens once a week here. >> to your point, they attacked the judge's daughter. not this gaggle today, but the others. it's a behavior that's beneath elected officials. it's extra judicial. >> you derive and project what happens if he's elected et cetera and the whole system -- >> you don't have to. they put it in writing, the 2025 project. >> everyone has poo pooed this case. it's tau dri and salacious. it's how general practices have been eroded. now it's fine for the senior senator from alabama to talk about coming to manhattan to kiss the ring and violate the gag order. >> not just him.

stormy has to wear a bullet proof vest because they've unleashed who knows who in the country. >> ian, what does the road back look like? >> it's what you've seen happen in poland and the czech republic where you've had this movements come to power. where you stop them is where everyone agrees on democracy. if we hold that coalition together, that's the road back. >> you and liz cheney and joe biden have to talk me through how that works. ian, melissa, harry, thank you for spending time with us today. another break for us. we'll be right back. a prebioti. (♪♪)

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