captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> ifill: gunfire, explosions and billowing thick, black smoke at a mall in kenya's capital marked the third day of a standoff between government troops and al-qaeda-linked terrorists. good evening. i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff in new york tonight, where i just spoke with former president bill clinton, in a wide-ranging conversation about kenya, a possible diplomatic opening from iran, and more.

>> maybe we will see an opportunity to see the new president of iran. we have to explore awful those things and work for the best to prepare for the worst. >> ifill: plus, paul solman looks at how employers are reacting to the mandate to provide insurance under the health care reform law. >> it's something that companies across the country are now weighing: keep employees below 30 hours a week, and thus avoid paying for their health insurance entirely. >> woodruff: those are just some of the stories we're covering on tonight's pbs newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> bnsf railway. >> and by the alfred p. sloan foundation. supporting science, technology, and improved economic performance and financial literacy in the 21st century.

>> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> ifill: our lead story tonight, the outcome of the battle at a shopping mall in nairobi, kenya, remains in doubt, even as the government claims its troops are "in control." unclear, but officials say at least 62 people have died, with more than 170 hurt. >> all has jess have been released. [gunfire] the crack of gunfire was still echoing all day outside of the shopping mall. two days after militants stormed the building. this morning four large explosions shock the complex and thick black smoke poored out for

an hour hour. government sources said they had taken most the complex. >> our resolve to defend our country has never been higher. and we want to say that we will take the war to the criminal's doorstep. >> the interior minister also said troops killed at least two of the attackers during the day fighting and arrested more than 10 others. but still the fighting continues. >> they are running and hiding somewhere or something but all now is under our control and i can confirm we have cordoned the building and there are no room for escapees. >> the government's pronouncements were met with frustrate of frustration in nairobi. >> they are taking too much time. they are supposed to be under this thing in like six hours and

supposed to finish everything. i couldn't think that -- we are not working on it. >> the battle began on saturday with a burst of chaos and terror. witnesses said 10 to 15 armed militants apparently male, though some dressed in women's clothing, stormed the mall and opened fire on shoppers, taking some of them hostage. some were able to escape as armed forces rushed to answer the alarm, children's and others were escorted to safety by security personnel. alshabbab with ties to al qaeda said they were retaliating for the offensive in somalia in 2011. that helped drive al shabbab out of area it once controlled. the group released an audio statement on the web today. >> this afternoon we heard from

the president of kenya who said he will seek revenge on al shabbab wherever they are but you have to know your forces are still very few places in somalia where they will -- now we are fighting in nairobi. >> the target, the west gate luxury shopping mall is popular with kenyans and foreigners and the confirmed ted include british, french and canadian. in addition, the kenyan's president own nephew and neff eye's fianceé were killed along with kofi anuna, ambassador to the united nations. the attackers also came from all over the world, including the united states. >> we have an idea who these people are and they are clearly a national coalition. we go out, we have an idea, and we also have an idea that this

is not clear a local event. we have fighting in here. >> after making a condolence call to the president before leaving the white house this morning, president obama met with nigerian president at the united nation and pledged u.s. support. >> the international community has to stand against the excellence e. senseless violence that these kind of moves represent. >> back in kenya family members of the victims mourned their losses. as night fell, the site remained a crime scene. >> we will we'll have much more on the situation in kenya right after the other news of this day. in pakistan, the death toll rose to 85, with more than 140 wounded, one day after a taliban attack on a christian chur. it happened in peshawar, where a pair of suicide bombers blew themselves up as worshipers were leaving a sunday service.

today christians across pakistan took to the streets to protest the attacks. demonstrators blocked roads and demanded better security for the country's christian minority. . >> we want an end to extremism, terrorism, and barbarism in pakistan. i appeal to the home my name i. minister to control the situation in the country and provide protection to religious minorities so churches are safe. >> ifill: the pakistani taliban vowed to continue targeting non- muslims until the u.s. halts drone strikes on militant leaders. a court in egypt today banned the muslim brotherhood and ordered its assets seized. it was the latest move in a crackdown by the military-backed government. about 2,000 brotherhood members have been arrested since islamist president mohammed morsi was ousted. the group was outlawed for decades, but reemerged in 2011, after president hosni mubarak was forced from power. the united nations is reporting "dramatic" progress in the global fight against aids and h.i.v. it said today there were

1.6 million aids-related deaths last year, down fully one-third from the peak year of 2005. the combined h.i.v. infection rate for adults and children has dropped by the same amount since 2001. the numbers are even better for children, with infections cut in half since 2001. the u.n. credits greater access to anti-retroviral treatments. in germany, chancellor angela merkel and her conservative supporters celebrated a powerful showing in sunday's elections. they fell just short of an absolute majority in parliament. we have a report narrated by matt frei of independent television news. >> this election has been so much about her that someone was bound to do this. it took last night's result to bring the lady to life like never before. the daughter from east germany,

the physicist and the consummate chemist joining in the victory gig was a customary under statement. the democratic headquarters has not experienced this since the two germ niece united. is the woman they call mom going to start -- no, she answered again and again. this message upset greeks and italians but made sense to germany. >> what germany stands accused of i have -- we want you to clean up your political economy and your addition function alsome so woe don't have to be under a brat. >> she needs to form a coalition and because her junior partners failed to get any seat in the parliament. >> we are open for talks.

i already had a first conversation with the head of the social democrats who understandably casino to hold the first party convention on friday. >> and that could spell instability for germany's parliament and beyond. but then again the woman behind the hand gesture has emerged from the euro crises as one of the most powerful leaders in the world. >> the woman at the >> ifill: the woman at the center of a furor over the internal revenue service is retiring. the agency confirmed today that lois lerner will not be back. she was placed on paid leave of absence in may, after she disclosed that the i.r.s. targeted tea party groups for additional scrutiny. illegal immigration from mexico into the u.s. may be rising again, after falling during the recession. the pew research center's hispanic trends project reported that finding today, based on census data. it said the number of people living in this country illegally rose to 11.7 million last year. that's up about 400,000 since

2009. in economic news, blackberry agreed to be sold to an investors group for $4.7 billion. the troubled smartphone pioneer announced friday it's laying off 40% of its workforce. and on wall street, the dow jones industrial average lost 49 points to close at 15,401. the nasdaq fell nine points to close at 3765. still ahead on the newshour, kenya's foreign minister on the deadly attack; a look at the terrorist group behind the siege; former president clinton on syria, the budget battle, and more; paul solman on the employer mandate part of health care reform; and looking abroad for ways to improve education here at home. >> ifill: we return now to the mall attack in kenya. chief foreign affairs correspondent margaret warner, who is in new york this week

covering the united nations general assembly, caught up with the kenyan foreign minister amina mohamed. like many others in government, she knew some of the victims. >> mr. mohamed, thank you for joining us and my condolences for what has happened in your country. >> thank you. thank you very much. >> we understand your daughter lost two of her very good friends there. >> that is correct. >> there's always somebody there and it's a huge tragedy. huge. >> and still ongoing. >> that's correct. >> what can you tell us about the perpetrators? it looks like a professional job. >> absolutely. i think if you look awe hoss carried out, it was professional. it was clear to the government now that al shabbab has been working with others in other parts of the world to increase the outreach, their capacity, to

expand the operations and to be able 0 reach places that hey have not reached before. >> you talk about with other al qaeda affiliates and wannabes around the world. >> absolutely. >> was your government surprised they had this kinds of reach to get in nairobi, pull off something of this scale without being detected? >> i think we were all shocked. and as governments, we must do better. if they can cooperate at that level and coordinate their evil at that level, governments around the world must coordinate more and be able to to share our intelligence and our resources, and we must be able to combine our efforts and collaborate more closely, just to make sure that we -- because this is a totally new way of doing business for them. and i think we have just seen how much damage can be done. we should not let them get away with this. >> al shabbab made it clear this

was in retaliation for what the kenyan portions have been doing effectively al shabbab in somalia and as part of the african union operation inside small yaw. and any part of your government from pulling back from that? >> absolutely not. >> i think we're more strengthened in our resolve to do our best to aproof al shabbab everywhere and anyone we find them. we are waiting to protect our security and common interests. al shabbab came into our country, taking tourists hostage, killing them and it was at that point we decided enough was enough and we wouldn't allow that. >> kenya has a large number of somalia refugees in kenya. do you think that has left kenya

more vulnerable. >> i think it has. i think it has. it has been very, very difficult to differentiate between the officials and some of this element that have been hiding, so absolutely, i think it's been something that we have been working on for a while. >> any thought of being less welcoming to them. >> no. i think we have to open our doors, when anybody faces fear of persecution, i don't think this is going to be one of those occasions where we turn around and say, look, we will shut down, we will not do that. >> how closely are the kenyan and u.s. governments working on intelligence and law enforcement side of all of this. >> i think now everybody is -- i

think this year, that we deliver and we need to work much more closely with everybody but much more with the us and the uk government. you know the victims came from kenya, the united kingdom and the united states. so. >> so both expwrish american citizens were among the perpetrators? >> yes. >> from the information that we have, two or three americans, and i think so far i have heard of one britt. >> and the britt was a british foreign woman. >> a woman. she has, i think, done this many times before. >> and from the information that's we have, young men, about -- between maybe 18 and 19. >> somalia originin? >> all somali origin or -- one

lived in the u.s. in minnesota and one other place. so that's just to underline, i think, the global nature of this war that we're fighting. >> what can these countries of africa that have now seen outbursts from various al qaeda affiliates do to keep this part of africa from becoming the new hub of the al qaeda affiliates around the world? >> it will require responses at all levels and especially at the global level. and also the regional level, the sub regional level and the local levels. the people, they live among us, they live in our countries. we know that. and i think it's time that we looked each other in the eye and said, listen, i think this -- he may have done something, and we need to be much more prepared to

deal with this and we must always remain ahead of them. >> thank you very much. >> >> >> ifill: for more on who's behind the attack, we turn to ray suarez. >> suarez: what is al shabbab, and what do they want? is kenya equipped to deal with the militant group? we are joined by peter pham, director of the nelson institute for international and public affairs at james madison university. >> as a somalia organization, concerned with who controls somalia, or a transnational organization? >> it's one way of evolving. certainly a few years ago it was concerned with establishing an extremist, islamist state, enam rate in somalia. but defeats by african union peacekeepers aided by intervention forces from eatsopia and kenya have put the group down on its heels and as a result it has been gradually

transforming and this is perhaps, if you will, the first salvo of the group as its new formation as a transnational group attracting people not only from somali backgrounds but other backgrounds and fighting as the regional affiliate of al qaeda it became a year ago. >> they were pushed out of moag deesh you and out of their southern base. are they operating out of trends or weakness when they do an audacious attack on a civilian target like a shopping mall? >> ironically it was the weakness and defeat that enabled them to transform themselves. up to that point, al shabbab was a coalition of different forces. some interested in somali agenda, others in a transnational agenda. what happened since then it has allowed the current amir of al

shabbab, to push the others and in some cases eliminate the other leaders and assume a much more cohesive control of the organization, so it's more nimble and arguably much more lethal. >> but is there an actual political program, a goal, to an attack like this, you kill more than 50, more than 60 civilians but to what end? they can't topple the kenyan state. >> i think what they're hoping to do is put their imprint. they became an al qaeda affiliate over a year ago and since then haven't done much more in roadside bombings, an occasional truck bomb but now they hit it big and this attack shows a greater tactical sophistication than al shabbab has ever shown before, to create multiple fighters going into a shopping mall, at various levels, attacking -- this required reconnaissance weeks if

not months in advance, and a support network in kenya which needs to be a concern to kenyan authorities now and neighboring countries need to ask themselves if they could be hosting a similar network or a sleeper cell and all of these are serious questions that need to be addressed. >> the dead come from a range of countries. but as we just heard the kenyan foreign minister tell margaret a few moments ago, the fighters come from a range of countries as well, possibly including the u.s. and britain. what does that tell you about al shabbab today? >> well, it tells us that the pipeline -- al shabbab was unique among the al qaeda affiliates to begin with. other al qaeda affiliates in the arabian peninsula has targeted the u.s. homeland, unsuccessfully to date and other affiliates of al qaeda had people reach out to them. but al shabbab, they have been a pipe line to fellow fighters and recruits, to its fight in east

africa as well as to send material support. there have been numerous federal investigations and convictions in u.s. courts. this is a group with a reach back to america and it shows that these fighters, the ones the minister mentioned from the united states, britain, i have heard other reports of fighters coming from sweden and other countries, that the pipeline is still active, and it's still drawing, even when the fight in somalia seems near finished, even with the transformation to a transnational agenda they're still getting recruits. >> ken y. has become a hub for international operations, in relief agencies, international groups and also military operations and it also has a large number of refugees on its soil. does al shabbab organize in those somali camps? is this something the kenyan state has had trouble with? >> as the minister mentioned in her interview with margaret this is something that kenya has

grappled with and it's a hot button issue. in any country, we would be upset in the united states if our second largest city was refugee camp and had been around well over a decade and this is what kenya is facing. but kenyan authorities need to be concerned that it's not just ethnic smallies, from somali or anywayive to to kenya. when al shabbab had its heyday, occupy most of somalia, the largest non-somali group within al shabbab were non-somali kenyans and other kenyans were involved and as we have heard, they seem to be successful in attracting foreign fighters as well. so one should be very careful about the profiling that it doesn't lead to a backlash that makes counterterrorism that much more difficult. >> this is the most significant terrorist attack in kenya since the u.s. meabs bombings. have african militaries gone to

school on how to fight back on this thing? are they anticipating more of this kind of attack? >> well, certainly over the course of the last decade and a half, two decades, african militaries by in large have become much more professional, better trained, and the kenyan military is certainly one of the more capable african militaries. but militaries have they purpose. they can push back at borders. they can secure certain areas. but we also need law enforcement. you need intelligence. you need to be able to operate in the community. so there are limits to what the military can do and we have seen -- and i don't want to criticize the kenyans in the wake of a tragedy but we have seen over the week some of the flaws in the people who were victims who were treated and released, the police didn't interview them and gather realtime intelligence, things like that that perhaps the international community could help kennians with, training up the law enforcement capacity alongside the military capacity.

>> peter pham of the atlantic council. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> woodruff: we turn now to our newsmaker interview with former president bill clinton, who kicked off the annual meeting of his clinton global initiative today. i sat down with him this afternoon at the site of the gathering in midtown new york. >> president bill clinton, thank you for talking with us. >> glad to do it judy. woodruff: we're here at the clinton global initiative but first the news of the day, the terrible horrific attack in kenya on a mall, a group of terrorists, scores are dead, over a hundred wounded. what does this say about the threat of these groups that say they're inspired by al qaeda? >> well, al shabbab has been doing a lot of damage in that part of the world for a long time and they attempted to take over somalia and they were

moving across the boarder to try to keep them from causing trouble in kenya so they have been looking for an opportunity to exact retribution and it's a terrible thing. and all of those innocent people. we lost one of our foundations people there, at one of our health access works are who was a wonderful nurse who was in nairobi because she was about to have a baby and she and the baby's father were just strolling through the mall. it's tragic. >> is this the kind of thing that we have to expect is going to happen? >> well, yes and no. that is, i know that since president obama has been there and when president bush was there and when i was in office, we prevented a lot of these. but it's not like baseball. you don't get credit for saves. you have to try to keep it from ever happening.

but these things happen. we had even more people killed, if you remember, 15 years ago, in the embassy bombings where all of the car bombs exploded outside of the embassies, and in kenya and tanzania and we just have to keep working on it. >> syria, another troubled part of the world. right now though there's this active initiative under way to get the syrians to give up control of their chemical weapons. what affect, if any, do you think this has had on the iranian government which seems to say it's open to doing something about it? it's nuke collar stockpile? >> well, if it's true, it's good news, and i think the syrian effort offer chemical weapons has -- in and of itself because we will not have chemical warfare in the 21st century but the larger hope is that once

syria and the russians get a transparent international arena that they will help us preserve the peace process in syria. because you can kill a lot of people without chemical weapons, and that's what we're worried about, all of us who have hated this, and not just the americans but people all over the world and it looks to me like russia may have recalibrated what it's national from was and what say i don't say in syria might mean to the region and ultimately ricocheting back to its trouble days on its southern borders. so maybe this will be the beginning of a peace process, and maybe we will see an opportunity seized by this new president of iran. we have to explore all of those things and work for the best while we prepare for the worst. that's what you should always do in this circumstance. >> meanwhile the israelis are looking at this, very skeptical

and they are saying they think it's a trap, and there's a lot of conversation, president clinton that the israelis are prepared to strike at iran on their own unilaterally. if they did that, what would the repercussions be? >> >> they could be quite significant but i think they haven't done that partly because they have tried to leave the door open to a settlement, but they want to take a hard line on it because they have heard all of these protesttations before and we have no intention of having nuke collar weapons and then the program gets bigger and bigger and bigger to give them the capacity to build weapons. so i think it's a nice cautionary reminder for us that you go into these things with your eyes wide open and if commitments have to be made, they need to be verified. but with this new president, he seems to want to approach and

work with the united states and we have to make sure that if we do, it's real. >> a lot of news here at home as well, when it comes to health care reform. it's still very unpopular. the majority of americans say they don't understand it. the majority say they don't like it. would it be a good idea to delay some of the major pieces of health care reform for another year. >> they need to be implemented now. it won't get any more popular. because the republicans don't want the government to make health care available and more affordable. it violates their etiology. so nothing will happen in the next year with the issues still to be resolved in terms of implementation that would change that. the only thing that will change public opinion is when it works and we do know, from what we have seen so far, that the cost of insurance for modest income people might be as much little

as a hundred dollars a month. we know that the aggregate of the insurance premiums are coming in at 20 percent less than the projected costs. and we also know that for all of the attacks on health care, it is less unpopular than president bush's medicare program when it started. and the democrats didn't try to repeal it even though most were against it. instead, they tried to make it work. that's what you do with the law, we tried to help. so the members of congress should be doing what the democrats that voted against the drug program did. they should be telling them how to make the most of it and that's what the administration should do and what we're going to try to do. my library is going to help people enroll in arkansas. that's what everybody should do. it's the law. >> two other quick things before we get to the clint global initiative. guns. another mass shooting this time in washington, d.c. this week.

and yet the appetite for gun control doesn't seem to be there. the president said yesterday there seems to be no will to do this. is gun control effectively dead for the time being in this country? >> well, we have two options. that would make sensible measures possibly. one is, we can put them on the ballot state by state. and colorado, keep in mind, where we had aurora and columbine. they voted 70-30 to close the loophole, something the senate can't get done. why is that? that's the second issue. we can defend the people that vote with the majority if the voters who support this would vote forthe candidates on the basis of it. this is a very political forum. it's arithmetic. all of these measures, limiting

the size of the ammunition clips, not having assault weapons. americans will support reasonable things as long as you don't interfere with their ability to hunt, sports shoot or defend their home. they will support other measures. but, the people who are for these things won't vote against you if you're own the other side. the people that are against them will vote against you if you're on the other side so that creates a political imbalance. >> one question about your wife, secretary clinton, she confirmed, for the first time this week, this past week, that she is wrestling with the idea of running for president. why did she choose to say this right now after months of avoiding the press on the subject, and how much does she talk to you? you two are so close. how much do you talk about it? >> i must say until i read the reporters of her interview it struck me that she was pretty much saying what she always did.

we don't need a four year presidential campaign. it's amazing how much longer they are now. she doesn't have to declare now or in three months or six months. and so i think she should just enjoy her life and finish her book. and do this work she wants to do. i just want her to be happy and i think she will make a better decision about this political issue if she -- if everything is going well in her life. that's what i think. we're knot as political as everybody thinks we are. we are not sitting around talking about this. if either one of us mention's political topic we will stop the other one and talk about the weather or whatever. >> so the clinton global initiative, this is your ninth year; is that right? the theme this year is mobilizing for impact. most people, i think, in this

country, look at the incredible poverty that exists around the world. what do you see? how do you measure that progress has been made? >> i will give you an example. that's the best way to answer it. from my own foundation, we have this anchor farm testimony. we buy cheaper seeds, cheaper fertilizer and insecticide. we take their crops to the market for free. we scare them until they wait until they can get a higher price. farming with a hoe on an acre. there were 21,000 of them, first year, acknowledge increase in income, 567 percent. acknowledge increase in outcome, they're producing two and a half as much food alone the same

piece of land. >> final apply to those americans that are listening to you right now, president clinton and saying this is all well and good swlee. a lot of problems in this country. this is a question that you get all the time sms what do you say to those who say why don't you focus more on the economy here. >> that's why we focus on the economy right here every year. we're 53 going to denver this year and i i'm going to try to identify specific things that we can do to try to grow the economy. and the companies can do. i try find things that are working and then spread it in other parts of the country. that could be done now and quickly. >> so your focus is everywhere. >> i really do care about the american economy. it's just i have to be very disciplined in what is likely to have a positive impact. we can talk until the cows come home. i'm interested to doing something. >> president bill clinton, thank you for talking with us on "the news hour." >> thank you. >> you can watch the full conversation, including more on

the clinton global initiative on our web site. >> ifill: next, we return to the impact of the new health care reform law. tonight: how employers are preparing to comply with new rules that require them to insure their employees. even though some portions of the mandate have been delayed, many employers remain frustrated. newshour's economics correspondent paul solman looks at the bottom line for different business owners, part of his making sense of financial news. >> reporter: at rock bottom brewery in omaha, nebraska, restaurant owner greg cutchall didn't mince words when it came to the affordable care act. >> the law, the way it's written today, i think should be scrapped. >> reporter: cutchall's main gripe is with the so-called employer mandate, which obliges firms with 50 or more full-time workers to offer affordable health insurance or pay a penalty of up to $2,000 per full-time employee.

>> i cannot think of any other burden that's been placed on the restaurant industry in the last 20 years that could have the impact that this one does. >> reporter: the employer mandate: a burden to some. to others: no big deal. >> most employers think it's a responsibility of being a good employer to offer health insurance. >> reporter: neera tanden, a former health reform advisor to president obama, points out that the vast majority of large firms already provide benefits to their workers. >> 95% of companies that have 50 or more employees offer health insurance today, and so we're really talking about an order of 10,000 firms in the whole country that are going to face this. >> reporter: so where are the complaints coming from? businesses with high turnover, like restaurants, which don't offer insurance to all their workers, and thus consider the act a very big deal.

benefits lawyer juliana reno has been advising firms on the law. >> it's different than, say, a law firm, which traditionally has offered coverage for its employees, but it doesn't have to suddenly cover or pay the penalty for a whole group of employees that it had not previously helped. >> reporter: omaha's cutchall employs 1,400 people at his 50 restaurants, mostly franchises like sonic drive-ins, domino's, famous dave's, and twin peaks. >> we have employees that work 40 hours one week and ten hours the next week, and then go away for two weeks. executing it and monitoring it is going to be a nightmare. >> okay, fish tacos? >> reporter: right now, cutchall only offers health insurance to full-timers who've worked at the company at least a year and work more than 32 hours per week. under obamacare, he'll have to offer benefits to anyone working more than 30 hours a week. >> if all of those people wanted

insurance, yeah, it would be a major financial burden on our company even if they paid half. >> reporter: an unbearable burden, argued jamie richardson of burger chain white castle at a congressional hearing. insuring all staffers that work 30 plus hours would make the affordable care act unaffordable. >> we can't foresee a future where we're able to hire new hires as full-time employees. we're going to be scheduling part-time at 25 hours per week or less. that's not what we would do under normal circumstances. >> reporter: it's something that companies across the country are now weighing: keep employees below 30 hours a week and thus avoid paying for their health insurance entirely. it's part of cutchall's plan. >> until we understand the law better, going forward, unless we absolutely have to for staffing needs, we will... we... our plan is not to make any new hires for people that would work over 28 hours a week.

>> reporter: more than half of restaurant jobs are part-time already. if hours are reduced even more, won't obamacare wind up backfiring? >> you know, what i'd actually hope is that most of these companies try to figure out a way to work with the law. the idea that people would really try to push workers into part-time work is part and parcel of a way of thinking in which employees are just costs that you're trying to minimize. >> reporter: moreover, said attorney reno at a recent obamacare q%a at her synagogue... >> it is hard to manage your workforce as well as you think you can. >> reporter: even if its company policy to work less than 30 hours a week, reno says it may be tough to manage in practice. >> i do have a couple of fast food restaurant clients, and they are having a very difficult time managing that. >> reporter: so the plan to cut hours may not end up saving employers that much money, especially when you reckon the other costs. >> if you, as an employer, try

to crunch down hours below 30, you are going to lose some employees. the second problem is, it's not going to cost you in terms of penalties, but it's going to cost you a lot more in terms of recruiting and training and administrative stuff, because now you have to hire more employees to have the same amount of man hours worked. >> so this is our expansion project. >> reporter: jody manor agrees that there are not-so-hidden costs to treating employees as interchangeable parts. he owns bittersweet café and catering in alexandria, virginia, and is opening a second location in october. >> we're going to do a bar and restaurant on the waterfront. >> reporter: manor already offers health insurance to all his 45 employees, but he doesn't have to. he soon will, however, as the new restaurant vaults him over the 50-full-time-employee threshold. that is an economic concern, he says. >> the biggest problem, from my

perspective right now, is that nobody really knows what it's going to cost. >> so what are you going to do with your employees in the new place you're opening? >> full speed ahead, man. you know, life is full of uncertainties, and businesses have got even more. yes, it's going to cost more money, but you've just got to build that into your model. to me, health care is a basic human right, and if we're going... at this juncture, if it's up to business to provide the benefit, then that's what we've got to do. >> you're not going to put people on part-time in order to avoid going over the 50-people threshold? >> i don't think so. once we have a little bit better idea about what the costs involved are, maybe i'll change my mind about that. but by and large, we prefer to have a full-time crew and, you know, that helps build our family. i always say this is like my big latin family here. >> reporter: manor's mom, alice, helps out at the café. so what's he like to work with

or work for? >> an indentured servitude program for mothers. >> reporter: no benefits at bittersweet for manor's mom, who doesn't need them. but the baker here, angel brizuela, has been with manor for 26 years, in part to get health insurance for himself and his family. >> health insurance is really, really important for the family. >> it's important to provide benefits if you're going to get people to stick with you. my baker came to the back door as a skinny little shivering kid one day, and i think it's a great story about our business. i feel incredibly proud of it that they show up and see that. >> reporter: you're tearing up a little bit. >> yeah, it makes me weepy. >> reporter: clifton stevens had recently been hired as a kitchen manager after years in the commissary at georgetown university. so was health insurance a major factor in taking this job? >> it was a major part, because in society today in my field its not offered a lot, you know, to

where i can be covered, as well as my family. >> reporter: but health insurance for more people costs more money, and manor admits he has greater flexibility to raise prices than the fast food joints that are cutting worker hours. >> i'm not selling the cheapest thing here. you know, i'm not competing with mcdonald's. >> reporter: but cutchall operates restaurants that do. >> the last thing we ever want to do is raise prices, because we know it can affect business, but at the end of the day, we have to maintain profitability, and if our expenses increase, as in any business, we have to raise prices. >> reporter: in july the obama administration delayed the implementation of the employer mandate, after companies complained the provision was crushing them. now folks have another year to comply-- another year to try to change the law itself. >> maybe now it's time to take a sad song and make it better, because we think this time is giving us a chance to fix the

parts of the law that really are unworkable and are really going to make it difficult for us to continue to employ people and create jobs. >> reporter: whether businesses get a little help from their friends in government or just have to let it be, well, for now, time is on their side. >> woodruff: finally tonight, what works in the classroom, and what can the u.s. try doing differently? it's part of our continuing look at ideas being discussed and debated in the world of education. jeffrey brown has our conversation. >> 19-year-old alex, finishing high school in minneapolis decides so spend school in a south korea city where students study much of the night and fall asleep in class. >> ? korean high school, home and school intersect constantly f you're at home, you're either studying eating or sleeping. if you're at school, you're

studying eating or sleep. >> kim, a 15-year-old in oklahoma jump's chance to study a year in finland. >> the students understand that it's important. they may not like a class but they know if they don't pass it, they don't pass their test and they don't, it's harder to get to university. >> ask tom, 17, travels from pennsylvania, to poland for his senior year of high school. >> there's a lot more respect for the teachers, the classrooms are much more -- it's a better environment. there's no jerking around and -- >> three student whose helped provide a lens or what makes for a successful education around the world and here at home. it's the subject of a new book titled "the smartest kids in the world," and the author, amanda ripley joins us now. welcome to you. >> thank you. >> first, explain the premise of the book. what were you after? >> i wanted to know how these countries that we always hear about, how they got so smart. because they weren't always so

smart. in the 1950s, finland had a 10 percent graduation rate. what happened in these places to get them where they will and what could we learn. >> what could we learn and why are we not up there. >> despite doubling how much we spend in education and all kinds of reforms and good will. >> when you say smart, you're using this measurement of a test called pisa. there are a lot of questions about how effective and what it tells us but you think it's a good measure. >> i don't think you want to rely on one thing. you want to head your bets and look at things like high school graduation rate and other things, other tests but i really liked the pisa in particular because it was designed specifically to look at your ability not to memorize knowledge gout take it, to solve problems, that you have never seen before association to apply what you know, to communicate an argument. >> how to think. >> right. those types of things without knowing the facts themselves. >> now it's easy to find

information. the hard thing is to do something useful with it. >> and in that exam, that's where the u.s. comes out rather poorly? >> well, we do better in reading to be fair. a test to 15-year-olds given every three years and we're about 12th in reading. we do below acknowledge from the developed world in math and science. we're 26th in math. >> you follow three american students spending a year at these three schools and come up with three different models. give me a brief description of what they experienced. >> so, finland is really, you topia model, the holy grail of education where you're getting 15-year-olds, virtually all of them are reaching a high level of critical thinking and math, reading and science. and they're doing that, that's the amazing thing, they're doing that without working that many hours. they're not studying all night long, not going to after school tutors, probably doing less home working than american teenagers.

south korea is a great example of the pressure cooker model of asia so it's an extreme version of that model where the kids are working extremely hard day and night and families are focused on education and they get to the same level at finland but the kids are studying twice as many hours. >> >> and you take us and introduce us to the teacher who makes $4 million a year, in the off hours, not in school but in these private lessons. >> they have something called a shadow education system in many of these countries and it's very sophisticated in korea. it's a different school that you go to after school that repeats all of the classes. this teacher became well-known, an english teacher and he sells his lectures online for $4 million a pop and he's a millionaire. >> that's why we shed, the students come into the actual school, and they are spending all night with teachers and listening to teachers like that. >> it is not working smart as

anyone in korea will tell you. there are fascinating things going on and the model as a whole is not a healthy balanced way to get the great. >> the witness: then there's poland. >> poland, they're excited to see, because poland as radically improved over the past 10 years despite having a high child poverty rate, a rate that is comparable to our own. this is a big country with a lot of issues, and still has not achieved of the level of finland but has dramatically improved spend. >> i was trying to figure out, what do these things have in common? i mean, i see schools and education taken seriously for one thing. a few gadgets, not an emphasize on electronics which is surprising, and teachers of course held in high steam. >> right. and i think those things are related. so when all of these countries were up against an economic crises at some point and for various reasons, partly luck, partly intentional, they decided

to get serious about education and they decided they needed to be rigorous for the teachers and the students and everyone involved. once you do that, it makes more sense to shut down your teacher training colleges and reopen them in the most elite universities in the land and it makes sense to give your children challenging, demanding work, the kind our kids don't get in math and science. >> that is the key question for our audience. what does it mean for the u.s.? having looked at this, what do you conclude that we're not doing right or as well as we could? >> i'm actually very happiful. i came back here more hopeful than when i left. we're against an economic crises as well and i think people are starting to realize you didn't need rig tore succeed in america twenty years ago but you need it now and our kids in order to thrive in this economy they need to be able to think, right, and to learn for their whole lives and i think there's a consensus building around that. i don't know.

we will see. it won't be every state but in some states we're seeing common core standards adoption and movement to more serious education. >> how much would you have to change the culture here, because for one thing we find our schools through local taxes as opposed to other countries. in all three countries you talked about, we put emphasize on the technology, the gizmo, in the schools that can afford them. we have sports activities, all kinds of things that i noticed are not emphasized in the culture that you are looking at. >> the kids noticed that a lot, the pure focus on academics and we're very distracted for lots of reasons but do i think that culture can change. this is the amazing thing about these places. in korea, you had a ridiculous it literary rate not that many years ago. culture has changed and people change with the economic times so i think the economy is important here and it also requires leadership and risk taking on the part of parents to

say, look, we're going to dial back on the ipads for everyone and four hours of football practice a day and remember what it is that our kids really need to thrive. >> all right. the new book is "the smartest kids in the world," amanda ripley thank you very much. >> thank you for having me. >> ifill: again, the major developments of the day. kenya's government said it's close to ending a three-day standoff at a shopping mall in nairobi. ail has jess have been freed. and a court in egypt banned the muslim brotherhood and ordered its assets seized. online, why knowing the small details about retirement benefits can make all the difference. our weekly advice column uncovers what the social security website doesn't tell you about spousal benefits.

you can find that on making sense on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. and that's the newshour for tonight. on tuesday, margaret warner reports from new york, as president obama and other world leaders address the united nation's general assembly. i'm gwen ifill. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. we'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. on behalf of all of us at the pbs newshour, thank you and good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us.

>> supported by the john d. and catherine t. macarthur foundation. committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. more information at macfound.org >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

♪ >> live from the d.w. studios in berlin, this is "the journal." >> here are our headlines. searching for a partner. german chancellor angela merkel begins work on forming a new government after sunday's landslide victory. >> the crackdown continues. an egyptian orders the office of the muslim brother hood confiscated. >> and troops railed a mall but