i would contend that we got it right in iraq during the surge. and really for the three-and-a-half years after the 18 months of the search, we explicitly went back to living among the people created gated communities to keep al-qaeda out of the areas and so forth. but i also note in that interview that gaza is tougher than faloo of matti mosul buccoo and all the others put together because of the 300 miles of very well-developed tunnels and subterranean infrastructure used by hamas. so this is a fiendishly more difficult situation in enemy who hides among civilians and so forth. but clear hold, build, i think is the answer. the question is who's going to be the hold force? and then how quickly can they commit to rebuilding flooding the areas with humanitarian assistance, restoring basic services and reconstruction of the damage to infrastructure general petraeus, it's always great to have you in hearing your take

on this. thank you so much for joining us you always learn something clear. >> fold belt. they don't want exact worth an all right. thank you so much for joining us. this is cnn news central seen in special coverage of the donald trump hush money trial continues. big day today on the sand t intention all back on the stand. you are looking at live pictures of 100 centre street in downtown manhattan, where in just minutes, michael cohen will be back under oath and donald trump will be watching as his former fixer tries to stitch together the prosecution's case for a jury that could send the former president of the united states to jail welcome to our viewers. >> i'm john berman in new york you're watching cnn special

live coverage of donald trump's hush money cover up, try not jake tapper in washington dc today, prosecutors want michael cohen to say more about the last piece of that sentence the cover up, part. that is the crux of the government's case against the 45th president. i was following his directions. cohen claimed in day one of this testimony the trump explicitly ordered him to pay stormy daniels, the adult film star and director, to keep quiet. and cohen also claimed that the reason was not to protect trump's family, but to prevent voter backlash just weeks ahead of the 2016 election today we anticipate the prosecution the dive deeper into the details about how trump repaid cohen, who fronted the money used to allegedly by stormy daniels, silence and then proceedings prominence to turn extremely thank needed with cross examination inside the court, expect defense attorneys to attempt to dismantle cohen's credibility outside the court expected

growing list of trump allies, including the republican speaker of the house, to do what trump cannot do. attack the witnesses cnn's reporters are inside the courtroom to bring you every important update from this historic hush money cover pro let's get right to cnn's elie honig at the magic while elliott big day yesterday, another big day-to-day. yeah. jake, a full de of critical testimony one yesterday for michael cohen. let's go through a couple of the key takeaways now, michael cohen took the jury back to the very start of donald trump's presidential campaign in 2015, when donald trump came down that escalate or trump tower, michael cohen was there and cohen told the jury that donald trump told him he said when this announcement comes out, that i'm going to be running for president, expect a lot of different women to come forward now that ended up being true in fact, in the months that followed, michael cohen work with donald trump and with various people, the national enquirer to make hush money payments to a doorman who had a false story about donald trump, $30,000 colors. they paid off

karen mcdougal through the national enquirer, $150,000 and finally, they paid off most importantly to this case, stormy daniels for $130,000. now, michael cohen was at the center of the stormy daniels payment and he detailed for the jury exactly how it was structured first, michael cohen himself paid stormy daniel's $130,000 and he told the jury exactly how that happened. he told the jury that donald trump said to him, he meaning donald trump trump expressed to me just do it go meet up with allen weisselberg, the cfo of the trump org, and figure this whole thing out. now, there was a really important example yesterday of the prosecution weaving in corroboration documents that backed up michael cohen about a very important specific de october 26, 2016. this is the day that michael cohen lined up the hundred $30,000 he was going to pay for stormy daniels prosecutors first showed to phone records 8:34 a.m. they

showing that michael cohen had phone calls with donald trump. cohen told the jury, i said them are you sure you want me to do this? are you sure you're going to pay me back? he said yes and yes, half-hour later, prosecutors showed an email that michael cohen sent to something called the delaney corporation to line up the paperwork to get the money, then we know from bank records that michael cohen opened an account that day in the name of essential consultants. and then finally at 4:15, we saw an email confirming that the, uh, hundred $30,000 had been moved into the account next day, michael cohen wires that over to stormy daniel's and her lawyer, and then the day after that, they have their non-disclosure agreement. so you see prosecutors, they're using documents to try to support and bolster michael cohen's testimony. cohen also testified about the non-disclosure agreement. he confirmed peggy peterson, that stormy daniels that's her signature. david dennison, michael cohen testified that's donald trump, although trump did not sign, and cohen confirmed that this signature here, that's his scratch on the sheet. he said he signed on behalf of essential consultants. now, the other

part of the payment is that donald trump repaid michael cohen $420,000 by a series of checks issued over the following year. this is the most important testimony that michael cohen gave yesterday. he said that when it came to that reimbursement he was asked. by, the de michael cohen was asked did mr. weisselberg's state in front of mr. trump that you were going to receive $420,000 over the course of 12 months cohen responded, yes. and then the dis and what, if anything, did mr. trump say that time? michael cohen said he approved it, so jake, that is the most important piece of testimony that we heard yesterday michael cohen link donald trump directly to the payment and to the cover up the reimbursement. so when michael cohen picks up today, i think we're going to hear more about that testimony and count on the defense team going back there during cross-examination probably later today, jake interesting stuff. >> elie honig, thanks so much. come join us at the panel here and let's talk about this with our panel. first of all, let me start to him again, go with you

reportable vips there today include the house speaker, and we should know he's not the speaker of the republican party. he's the speaker of the entire house of representatives , democrats and republicans. and yet he is, he is there to support president trump. you can call this support, you can call vassal ij, whatever you'd like. north dakota governor doug burgum, florida congressman byron donalds and cory mills, and then former republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy. what do you make of this i don't know a look they're doing this is like going to pay tribute at mar-a-lago, donald trump clearly wants them there and they are happy to oblige. >> i think of all of those i understand the vip stakes guys who think that they'd have to come to please him i do find it fascinating as i do everything about this case that we find ourselves on a day where the speaker of the house is going to 100 centre street for this,

i know it's not a hush money pouring case. it's a records case, but this is where we find ourselves let's also just interesting because it's it's very different from like theoretically there was a time when politicians, if there was a case going on politicians might say, just as a knee-jerk looks, let the system play out and not have these demonstrations of support aid want to be as far away from well, there will be not just that, but also being criminally indited yes possible. >> yes. that but that's the politics of it. i also just mean the respect for the system playing itself out. but there is something going on here. we know the important that donald trump pay feels about his, his definition of loyalty, which is loyalty to him, not necessarily a two-way street and casey, i want to play this moment from. 1990 to donald trump's hawking about the issue of loyalty that would have wiped the floor with the guys that weren't loyal, which i will now do, which is

great. i love getting even with people if given the opportunity, i will get even with some people that would just loyal to me. i mean, i had a group of people that would disloyal. but how do you define? and disloyalty? >> they didn't come to my aid how do you define disloyal? >> they didn't come to my aid. so what we have here as the ultimate display of loyalty by these vips, including the speaker of the house. and also in front of him, the witness, the ultimate display of disloyalty you do. >> and that really shows you how donald trump, the man was foraged many decades ago and has been true to this set of personality traits and tendencies. now for, i mean, that was how old, 30 years old, right. and i was told there was not any math on them but it's over 30 years old. i will say that and he is demanding loyalty from the people around him and then casting them out. >> i mean, when i talked to republicans who worked in the

white house, they'll say with donald trump, loyalty is a one-way street. he expects loyalty from you. but the second that you are not useful him anymore, that's when it's over. i mean, michael cohen had remained loyal to donald trump, i believe until donald trump basically cast him out, right. and then there was the fbi rate and they broke ranks at that point. the idea that i'm not sure that the idea that michael cohen turned on trump before trump turned on cohen is an accurate description of events but then yes, from a political perspective, you're seeing this just this parade of people that he is demanding someone described in a headline as the indignity of the trump beef steaks. and i really do think that is what it is they sort of have to prostrate themselves up for him because i mean, the reality is he if you are a politician in the republican party, 30 and donald trump turns on you, you will be cast out of the party that is just the reality of the situation right now. >> let's talk about the case. so bill brynn one of the things that michael cohen tried to do the prosecution tried to do was to illustrate the idea that

this cover this payment, the hush money payment happened explicitly because of donald trump's fears of how voters would react and not out of fears of how melania, his wife, would react. this is according to michael cohen, i'm not saying it's a fact. i'm saying according to cohen. and in fact, cohen testified that he asked what to trump what melania's reaction would be? he when the stormy payment was made and trump said, according to cohen quote, don't worry, he goes how long do you think i'll be on the market for not long. he wasn't thinking about melania. this was all about the campaign again, good evidence. if you consider michael cohen to be a credible witness, right? >> i agree j. and i think that any married individuals, especially married men, on that jury, will say that this just past the smell test. i mean i think there was another quote in there that cohen attributed

to trump. said sounds like it's going to hurt me with women. so what are hurting with one particular woman? milan 22, trump. and even if you take the love and marriage aspect out of it, there's a huge financial risks there, and i think it's so long ago. i think his son was only a baby, so it's ludicrous to say that for colon to say that there was no import to trump about the impact that would have on his marriage. these two things, jake, are not mutually exclusive, and i think that's where people are getting hung up. if that jury gets back there and says, well, he was worried about his marriage and his family, and he was worried about his presidential campaign and they don't think that the primary worry was the presidential campaign. i don't think it gets to the second crime and i don't think it gets into the felony. >> important question to that point, how the judge will instruct the jury to handle how they weigh the question of was it primarily political or was it sort of personal, the judge

will have to explain to the jury, you must convict or you've probably you can convince if you find that the defendant has done the following, but no one really knows and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, don't no one truly knows that it's the balance of whether it's political for personal. a lot of it because it's an open source, nebulous gray area, legally. >> yes. so the test more or less, was one of the substantial motivators the campaign and politics. there are often mixed motives and it makes perfect sense to me that donald trump would have been concerned about both the political end of this and the familial end of this. but as long as they're both substantial, it's not even a question of which is more prevalent in his mind as long as they're both substantial, that's enough, but bill makes a good point. we are about to get into a dicey and elliott makes the same point dicey area of campaign finance law. and we've had reporting and maybe jamie's report on this that both sides are considering calling campaign finance expert that would scare me as a prosecutor because, you know what the answer is to almost

every hypothetical you pose to a campaign finance expert. well, it depends. it's subjective. you'd have to look all the facts and as a prosecutor, that's poison. you don't want the jury going back. they're going i don't know. it's a rental. it's a mind bender, so i'm very interested to see how the prosecution is going to deal with that and try to explain to the jury, click clearly here's what campaign finance laws are. here's how they were broken. >> and the quote that was just alluded to cohen testified about the stormy daniels story. trump said, quote, women are going to hate me. that bill was talking about this. guys may think it's cool, but this is going to be a disaster for the campaign. he said to me, this is a disaster after a total disaster. yeah. well, i mean, that was the impression at the time. i mean, when the access hollywood tape came out, you'll remember it was one of the few times at donald trump was not one to apologize for things that he said that offended people i mean, he went after john mccain and he stood by that all the way along no matter how many people told him, hey, you should take that back, you should apologize, is a war hero. >> this was a time and i remember the day. i as i'm, sure, you guys do as well from

covering it they were in this panic mode initially and then there was the statement from him. but the thing that mattered the most i we re-watch some of it earlier this morning on this network what mattered the most was melania going on tv in that moment and saying that this was just locker room talk. she went in there and she vouched for him and that gave away for all these women who yeah, probably looked at that and look down trump's very good at understanding the political ramifications of what he does and what he says, what is going to play, what's not. this idea? here that this would be really bad for women. it rings true for very obvious reasons. and what he needed was a woman to vouch for him and she did not. she stood by him at that moment. i do think that underscores why it's noteworthy. she's not there now, and i will also say, i mean, to your point sure i see what you mean about how yes. he couldn't and there's no way we're going to know if michael cohen is telling the truth or if there's some other version of the truth in terms of what donald trump was saying. i will just say if you hear him talk about women, it does not ring

untrue that he would say something like, are you kidding if my wife left me, i'd have another way? if right away, also, by the way, his public persona or that out. i mean, this is not your wife just quickly, the public knows who donald trump. yes. they know him from the tabloids in new york. they know his marital history he's not some anonymous defendant who's sitting there. i don't think that helps him. also, the testimony that he really didn't want to pay stormy daniels until after the election. they were trying to suffer because then it wouldn't matter. >> yeah why just got a note here press advisory from the office of the speaker of the house not from his campaign, but from his actual official speaker of the house paid for by you saying speaker johnson to deliver remarks outside sham trump trial. >> that is that is the thing about 10:15 in the morning, the speaker of the house will give

remarks. john berman in new york all right, jake, thank you very much. i should say the doors are open to the courtroom now, the press has been led in paralegals have gone in carney a whole lot of documents preparing for the testimony which could begin just a few minutes from now with me. paula reid and kristen holmes. paula, first to you what are we going to see today? michael cohen's not done within the prosecution. importantly, not done with michael cohen. yeah. far from done with the prosecution's case, because when we left off last night, he was talking about what happened in january 2017 and the actual charges. the heart of this case allegedly falsifying at 34 different business records that all occurred in the year 2017. so now prosecutors are going to have to walk him through this alleged conspiracy. what he heard from trump, what he saw, his own even falsified invoices that he submitted walking through all of those checks that he siege over the course of that year then it is likely

that they will have to walk them through some pretty uncomfortable subjects, including his lengthy criminal record and also the fact that he has spent years attacking the defendant. the reason prosecutors are gonna want to talk about that is because we know the defense attorneys are going to talk about that and you don't want todd blanche to be able to debut? you, these in front of the jury, you want to get out in front of that, so we still have a long ways to go. and mr. cohen pulled this thing. >> i've already got you want to pull the sea? they have a lot of sting to pull. it's a big stinger when it comes to michael cohen. and just to clean up noch cleanup but add some color to one thing, the panel in dc was discussing when the defense if the defense make a case was when the prosecution is done, you have some details about a witness. they may call yeah, exactly. the only expected to call a few witnesses. >> we expect that they'll call a trump organization official, alan garten, one other attorneys, and then they do suspect at this point to call an election expert. now we expect that testimony will be narrow, but that is one of the few people we expect to hear from in the brief defense case, because the defense is the

cross-examination of michael cohen. this has been todd blanche is focus. this is how they believe they will break the prosecution's case and kristen, we know that johnson, the us speaker over the house, will be holding a press conference here at 10:15. >> vivek ramaswamy in the motorcade from trump tower to hear you've got to reporting on the strategy as it were behind all of this. >> yeah, this is basically the new loyalty test for donald trump. it's also kind of a test if you want to be at the top of the ticket and we're seeing some of these potential vice presidential pecs, people who we know are on the shortlist showing up at court with our jd vance, senator from ohio yesterday, we reported that he is on that list. and when donald trump talks about a lot, north dakota governor doug burgum is there today. he's going to be giving remarks, obviously speaker johnson. now some of this is just a mutual be beneficial situation because speaker johnson needs donald trump right now. in fact, a lot of these lawmakers feel like they need donald trump. they want to be on his good side because he is the republican nominee and he very well could be president again, the other

part of this, but donald trump was really upset when he felt like he didn't have any support in the courtroom and outside of the courtroom when there weren't enough protesters out there that supported the former president. this is part of that strategy to get him to have that support in the courtroom. i've got to say yes, this is twofold. you have some of these people are offering to come in. donald trump's team is reaching out to some of the others. i mean, they're both looking at this as a mutually beneficial situation. >> i'm really curious to see how this plays with jury because obviously not many members of his family are there. eventually after this is all said and done, eric trump has shut up a few days. we may see laura lara trump here today, but i'm curious seeing all these politicians supporting him. does that help or hurt the overall perception of the defendant, any word that any non eric trump blood relatives will show up for donald trump. we have had no indication of that. >> i mean, obviously ivanka trump is removed herself from the political sphere. don junior's still close to his dad, but however, he's just

doing his show everyday on rumble talking about the case, but not actually showing up. and there's absolutely no indication that melania trump would shop and one of the things when i talk to people who knew her back when these reports first came out, is that she was not so much upset just about the actual event that happened, these potential hush money payments and the alleged affair. but what she was barest about was this idea that everybody knew her personal business. it's not something she's going to be on display. she's not necessarily your type of first lady who's going to come stand by their man, but instead, she will be down at mar-a-lago living her life separately. well, this unfolds, but again, no real word on any other family members come back, so forgive me, score at home. no. ivanka trump. but doug burgum no melania trump. but vivek ramaswamy, we will see how that plays with the jury and we're going to see it all in just minutes. critical testimony set to start in donald trump's hush money trial. michael cohen, back under oh, you are watching cnn's special live coverage

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the stakes here? i am torn between thinking that this is incredibly important. a former president on criminal trial and the fact that the charges really pale in comparison to the other court cases out there on subverting the election and classified documents and cetera. and i can't really get a sense from the american people through polling as to whether or not a conviction will make any difference whatsoever? >> yes. agreed that you can't get that sense at all? polling, because i don't think we know i am curious to see if that changes once a verdict is in in this case and we'll have a little bit more of a sense of how the american people sort of feel about that verdict in this case. because right now, jake, throughout the course of the trial, it doesn't seem to be moving the fundamentals of the race at all. and i'm not sure that it will. you made the point of comparing it to the other case? he says, which by the way, are not likely to see a jury before election day or get tried before election day. and so this may be the only one. and so the fact that

comparison sort of goes away because it may be the only one before election day that doesn't mean that the stakes are small. the stakes are large. this is a former president united states at a presumptive probable looking nominee, sitting through what is now the most consequential week of his life as a criminal defendant. i mean, that that that is high-stakes. there's no doubt about that. and i do think we sometimes undercount just the targeted voters in the middle independence in these battleground states that turned away from trump chaos in 18 and and 20202 it's hard to imagine that this brings them back in some way. and so if it keeps those voters at arm's length from donald trump, that doesn't and serve him well in this scenario, but we truly don't know. and i think we have to wait and see which is enormously frustrating. obviously, for the biden campaign for the trump campaign and for those of us that cover and observe this. >> jamie again and go one of the strongest bits of evidence.

pardon me so far that we've seen is this memo sketch down by allen weisselberg the chief financial officer at the time, the trump organization, if we could put it up just to show people and it's weisselberg, according to the prosecution, it's weisselberg calculating how to pay michael cohen back the $130,000 he pays stormy daniel's allegedly $50,000. he paid this firm called red finch that was cooking all these bogus online in polls on behalf of donald trump in 2016. so that's one 30 plus 50 equals one at he doubles it. so as to have michael cohen not have to pay the taxes on it. and then there's additional money because michael cohen was really upset that he got stiff that have a good christmas bonus in 2016, and then it says did the bottom of it, why are monthly from djt? and this buttress the argument that he was paid back by donald trump for the hush money payment, and it was just the scheme to cover it up by having it looked like he was just being paid a monthly fee.

>> right. and you did the math again? i am i'm told by sources familiar with the prosecutors. they think that document is a critical piece of evidence because it lays it all out. there is the elephant, not in the room. and that is an allen weisselberg. he is sitting in rikers for the second. he's got free time, right there. >> there is a oh question about why the prosecutors have not called him to testify. the understanding is he would not be co-operative. that's why he's sitting in rikers for the second time right now. the judge is deciding whether or not to bring allen weisselberg to 100 centre street out not with the jury present to just see what he would say. will he take the fifth will he not answer? because one question is, are the juror's gonna be wondering where is the other guy who is in the room for all

mr. brandon, tell us if you would, what would this thing called the missing witness is? this is some sort of legal theory that's been introduced yesterday to me. i'd never heard of it before, even though i am in assiduous watch or law and order what is the missing witness? >> jake, at the conclusion of the trial, if mr. weisselberg does not testify the defense can get up and say the jury, why didn't hear from weisselberg where it was weisselberg. >> have you allowed to do that? you have to get special dispensation to do that. >> no, you don't. we try the case not too long ago. in the eastern district that had a political bent and there were two former members of congress that we're kind of person number one and person number two. and it involved some campaign strategist my client was not charged. his brother was and the differential are very fine. defense lawyer from philadelphia put who chairs in front of the jury box and say lydian, gentlemen, i'm not

going to mention the names, but where's congressman and where's congressman and it didn't work in that case, but you can do it. >> it didn't work for clinics would when he did it with barack obama at the 2012, if that's worked very often object to your question. can you just do that? it's important to note that every rule that governs our court system comes out of the constitution in effect, and they all are designed to protect the defendant, not witnesses, not prosecutors have anything else. and so the idea that a jury can draw negative thoughts or inferences about somebody who doesn't testify is perfectly fair game because of the fact that it ultimately acts to the protection of the defendant allen weisselberg's actual legal abilities here is he are you allowed to just refuse to testify? so let me explain how this is going to play out. >> i think with allen weisselberg, and this is an important issue looming over these last several days of trial. those exactly right? the missing witness problem is terrifying for prosecutors. i

never wanted to have a missing witness. the best you can do though, is what you call an unavailable missing witness. so here's what i think is going to happen. abl icebergs in prison. that's not why he can't testify. people get transported down. there's vans every couple of hours from rikers now for the courthouse what i think the judge is going to do is bring allen weisselberg again outside the presence of the jury and say, are you willing to answer questions and if he says no, your honor, i'm going to invoke my fifth amendment right, which he should doesn't necessarily mean well, which you should then he becomes unavailable if the word fellow weisselberg is i won't testify. fifth amendment. it's the same thing as if he was dead. he's another hello, able to both sides and then the instruction that bill was talking about will be way better for prosecutors. it won't be well, there was a missing witness either sayyed to call them. it's a missing witness. he's i instruct you, allen weisselberg is legally unavailable and then defense lawyers like bill can't do their whole shtick with the missing chair because it's not available what about the documents? >> the severance contract or whatever it's called? you have a copy mr. weisselberg, when he

left the firm, what he left the trump organization signed a document. >> tell us about that. >> so what this is is and he is still owed payment on it. he is still waiting for 750 presumably this is and tooby says that he cannot verbally or in writing disparaged criticize or denigrate the company or any of its current or former entities officers, directors, managers, employees, owners, or representatives, non disparagement so anything negative about the trump now deal if he's under oath, all the way is another clause part d, that except for acts or testimony directly compelled by subpoena or other lawful process issued by a court of competent jurisdiction. >> he will not communicate and it goes on i think this goes to the point that allen weisselberg is going if the judge brings him in, as we

think he may, he's going to take the fifth because he can be subpoenaed and come in. but he doesn't have to testify. >> all right. fascinating stuff testified jake and air case yeah. for days. but it was under a cooperation ten agreement with the da's office. >> okay. very interested. we'll pick that up when we come back out. the judge's inside the courtroom. judge juan merchan, and very soon we expect michael cohen, michael dean cohen will get back up on that witness dancing and special five carbons continues just to keep it here arthritis pain. >> we say not today tanno, eight hour arthritis pain has two layers of relief the first is past, the second is long-lasting we give you your day back so you can give it

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shot of adrenaline right to the heart all right welcome back to cnn special live coverage of the criminal trial. donald trump. those relied pictures from inside the courthouse a few minutes ago, donald trump passed through that area right there, walk into the court where he is sitting. now when we understand chatting with his defense counsel, judge juan merchan is on the bench right now. and as you can see on the side of your screen, he just said, let's get the witness, please. that means that michael cohen, on his way back to the witness stand for crucial testimony this morning, the prosecution will continue their direct, which means the prosecution gets to ask him questions and then at some point today, we do anticipate that offense. will get their turn with the cross-examination . i am here, not far from the court with paula reid and chris kristen holmes, and one of the things we expect to happen very quickly this morning is a discussion about a meeting in the oval office after donald

trump was already president with michael cohen were some part of this was discussed. >> that's exactly right. because he left off somewhere in january 2017 and then in february 20 17, once trump is the leader of the free world, he's in the white house he and michael cohen have a meeting in the oval office. whereas you said they discuss some part of this alleged conspiracy to falsify business records. this is potentially a key piece of evidence and testimony for prosecutors, depending on what michael cohen said. now cohen has entered the courtroom he's apparently glance back several times at the back of trump's table. it's a highly obstructed view in there. it's difficult to see especially once you're at the witness stand, but he would walk directly past trump's table as he tries to make his way to the witness. the stand. so that's likely what that is referring to that people looked over to trump, which is notable because it wasn't clear yesterday for a lot of it how much he was looking. they're that trump was in conversation with his attorney, didn't look towards cohen as he walked by, so no

acknowledgement. but when prosecutors get to this oval office meeting and cohen is really really the only person unless trump testifies who can speak to this. and again, it's a really critical piece of evidence and then building their case that trump was aware of this alleged conspiracy to falsify business records and cover up this hush money payment to be clear at the end of testimony yesterday, michael cohen did say that donald trump knew of and approved of the payment scheme classifying them as legal payments, which the prosecution contents was not the case. so we got one bite at that yesterday, cohen has already testified to that. will they do it again? the jury has now entered the courtroom. kristen, one of the questions that i've been asking a lawyer since last night is okay if the jury believes michael cohen is their enough enough now to convict him and the answers lawyers will give you is yes but the question, if the jury believes michael cohen is such a big one and you have reporting that the trump defense team is looking at just a gifted that exactly exactly.

believe that this all comes down to michael cohen, the pick entire case hinges on him and as we have been reporting, that is there your entire defense, it's going to be going after michael cohen. they're doing it both publicly and they're going to do it in the courtroom as well. the big question being again, will the jury believe michael cohen over blank because we don't have donald trump testifying all it is is michael cohen story here, and we really don't know the answer to that. we've heard time and time again from various lawyers, legal analysts, who say it really is unknown how they could perceive this. does this look like donald trump was committing a crime or does this look like a god's eye who was cheating on his wife and trying to get past that issue. now, again, when i talked donald trump's lawyers, they say that they hope that the jury can see through michael cohen and they plan on using michael cohen painting him as a liar, somebody who it out to get donald trump has an ax to grind during that cross-examination, one lawyer i spoke to said, look, this is all resting on michael cohen's shoulders. how is he going to

be during that cross-examinatio n? >> okay. the prosecutor is picking back up with cohen's meeting with trump and weisselberg and the plan reimbursement. i want to bring it out and coffman, he's a former executive assistant district attorney for the manhattan district attorney's office. and adam on that very point, we understand the prosecution is going right back to the meeting between trump weisselberg and michael cohen. were the discussion of the payment plan allegedly took place according to michael cohen why is that so crucial? why is michael cohen testifying that trump approved it? so important to this case right. >> so you know, a lot of what we've heard in the first parts of the case was setting the table for this moment. it was laying the groundwork establishing all of the corroboration establishing the context, establishing the caching and so forth sorry, i'm getting a back over thank

you. >> so so when you cut to the heart of the case, which is whether there was this agreement to falsify records, whether trump knew about it, whether he approved it, whether he was part of that. >> this is the heart of the case. this is the core of the case and i think it's true this really does come down just to michael cohen's testimony. this is not going to be corroborated unless weisselberg testifies. and so it comes down to cohen, everything else was laying the groundwork and trying to corroborate all of the collateral and extrinsic points about cohen. but at the heart part of the case, it's what cohen said happened with trump and what you're seeing on the screen right now is testimony that the scaffolding to back up some of the timeline that michael cohen is saying, you're seeing testimony submitted to evidence previously from jeff mcconney, who was the controller of the trump organization emails sent from mcconney to michael cohen

talking about the invoices. and now michael cohen is discussing the oval office meeting with donald trump. we have not yet heard about that from michael cohen directly. we have heard about a meeting in trump tower. now now cohen says he visited the white house the same day and had a conversation with trump in the oval office cohen says, i was sitting with president trump and he asked me if i was okay. he asked me if i needed money adam to have a conversation in the oval office about something connected to this scheme. how do you think that will play with the jury that's really it's pretty powerful, isn't it? >> i mean, if you're a juror sitting there, i think it's powerful for all of us to hear it this conversation taking place at the seat of power, the most powerful desk in the world it really speaks to something and i think the jurors are going to really take note of

this. of course, the defense will tear this down and say that ultimately, whatever happened in this meeting and the fact of the meeting will be corroborated. what was said will not be. and so the defense is going again to try to tear down cohen's like michael cohen says i'm just going to have to jump in here because i do want people to know exactly what's being said. michael coe said, i said no, all good. that was to the question of do you need money? i miss what it said there. it went down hoffinger. the prosecutor asked whether trump said anything about what would be forthcoming to michael cohen. so again, we're getting details about this conversation. adam and i apologize, i will jump in the minute we get another update from the court yes. it would be a check for january and february. cohen response. so again, he is talking about how he is getting details. cohen confirms he took photos while he was there details around this visit to the white house to corroborate he was there

even if there is no one else to testify about exactly what was discussed between he and the former president atom cohen confirmed he took photos while he was there? yes. i just saw that jurors are being shown the photo of cohen in the white house briefing room, which has been displayed previously. all of this atom i imagined evidenced again to support his presence there, if not the exact contents of the discussion after the meeting with trump yeah. >> go ahead. >> very powerful. just see those photos and great corroboration. but again, it comes back to what was said at the meeting and there will be no witnesses to that and you know, what? these payments were four so so i think that the evidence that we're seeing right now is it has a sort of human power just the location where it occurred. and the fact

that this was in the oval office is remarkable but the defense will still pair that down. and try to show that it's just cohen saying what he claims happened in that meeting and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, how can you take the word of a serial liar that that's where we're heading we are heading there at some point later today, adam, thank you so much for your health here back with paula reid and kristen holmes. and what we're getting right now is just a lot of supporting evidence that michael cohen was there. the pictures he took, the calendar entries that he had while he was that the boy house meeting with donald trump? yeah. and it's funny because at one point they asked, why did you take photos because there were a lot of questions yesterday about why he recorded something, right. was his to protect you. is this trip protect someone else when you record a phone call with your boss without his knowledge and he said he was trying to protect someone else, but this time he gave a pretty reasonable answer, which took photos because i'm visiting the white house is what people do there. you see one of those photos? i appears to be in the white house briefing room. and now the jury is looking at

emails between geoff mcconney, who previously testified and cohen. now, i keep going back to a key piece of mcconney's it's testimony where he corroborated what many witnesses have said, which is a trump is the consummate micromanager he was involved in everything until 2017 then he goes to the white house and this system, the process changes and things become very chaotic. now, trump's lawyers will also argue that during this exact time, there were trying to build a wall between the trump organization and the white house. and really this meeting that's what makes this so significant because it is one of the few examples where you have someone like allen weisselberg who works at the trump organization and trump and cohen altogether talking about this alleged conspiracy. >> and again, you are getting more detail tails now, more supporting evidence that michael cohen was there and one of the emails from jeff mcconney dated february 14, 2017, cohen asked mcconney to remind him the monthly amount he is opposed to invoice. >> and jake, what you're getting here, not just michael

cohen's presence at the white house book contemporaneous correspondence from cohen to others about the payment scheme tig that's run economy responds to remind cohen its $35,000 per month. >> this is part of according to the prosecution, the way that they hid the repayment to michael cohen for the stormy daniels payment with a monthly fee as if that was what he was just being paid as donald trump's attorney, i actually didn't remember it. cohen explains i didn't have a copy of the document and here we get into the nitty-gritty elliot williams of the fact that this is a falsification of business records. case. these are the actual well falsified business records allegedly few things are going on here. number one, they are in effect corroborating michael cohen's testimony in real time by going to the financial records that can support the words that are coming out of his mouth. now remember one. number two, it's

also very clear that at a minimum, the prosecution as established with flying colors, now that there was a scheme to repay michael cohen for the for the process of covering up embarrassing affairs. now the question is the extent to which you can draw a link to this being done for the benefit of the president since marriage. but they've been quite successful here at establishing this point. and there is a narrative you'll see it today frankly, at the lunchtime press conference that the prosecution has not met any of its burden or presented any evidence to the contrary, this is actually quite compelling. >> this is a good example if i can the strengths and the weaknesses of the prosecution's cases because we have this crucial meeting february 2017, in the oval office, and there's all sorts of corroboration that matters. they have calendar entry showing the meeting happen. they have photos that michael cohen standing at the lecter emails. there was testimony from madeleine westerhout that

there's no question that meeting happened. so that's nice. is corroboration. >> but what they only have michael cohen's testimony on is what was said inside that meeting. >> you liked that corroboration as a prosecutor, it's great, but it doesn't get you all the way there. and that's why ultimately, michael cohen's credibility is going to be a make or break. >> jake, i'm sorry. my good friend it's not what was said. >> we have written checks by a sitting president of the united states at his desk and those checks assigned from his personal bank account. >> and then we have weisselberg with his own handwriting notes explaining what those checks total up by that, let's bring up let's bring up checks. let's bring up the weisselberg memo that lanny davis, former attorney for michael cohen, is referring to there it is. then that's the that's the document you're talking about. >> can i give you a narrative? now can reveal when i first saw that document sitting prosecutors did not know about it. i thought this is the hottest document i had seen

besides the checks that elie forgot dimension oh, signed by a sitting no insult intended. just you didn't mention the fact is that this document ld, when i first saw it in weisselberg ten writing chewing up the amount of money, nothing about legal services is all about reimbursement. and that reimbursement where it was used by rudy giuliani on national television. nobody doubted it was a reimbursement. and that's the documents, but can i just bring up the document one more time? yes, you would. folks. i just want to walk scroll. >> so said the thing the thing that's going on right now, this check for $35,000 that michael cohen is testifying, right now about with attorney the prosecutor, susan hoffinger, saying was this invoice a false record? this is the monthly invoices michael cohen. it's supposed to send for $35,000 and michael cohen says, yes, ma'am, it's false. we're any of those invoices that you submitted based on services performed for the months indicated pursuant to a retainer agreement, hoffinger

asks michael cohen's going to say no, but what i want you to bring your attention to, i don't know if we have the capability of zooming in on that document. no, ma'am. they were for reimbursement when cohen says, if you look at this document from allen weisselberg where he breaks down the hush money payment plus the additional money that it's going to have to be. so that michael cohen doesn't end up getting screwed on the taxes plus some additional money for our christmas bonus. you got screwed out of that ends up being and it says right there here at the bottom, right above monthly from djt wire, monthly from djt, it says $420,000 and then it says, if i did $35,000 every month, this is the money, but the math is which i had to figure out myself when $35,000 times 12 is 420,000. >> he took the double every thing divided by 12, $35,000 a month. >> that was the reimbursement scheme. >> and hoffinger asks if cohen received 11 checks in response to those 11 false invoices for a total of $420,000? yes,

ma'am. cohen says so this is the falsification. this this is the actual crime and we have allen weisselberg bergs memo, which explains how this figure came to be. and i guess the question for the defense attorneys would be, how do you explain this and we don't have built right in here. comes out donald trump testifying, which he said he would do and we are forgetting that he said he didn't say if my lawyers allow me. he said he would do lead to ask mr. the reason why i agreeing are assessing that your excitement about this document is at the time because without that document it is much more plausible for trump to say we just paying them a monthly retainer $35,000 or anyone to say we just paid them a monthly retainer of $35,000. he was my personal attorney, et cetera, but this document and weisselberg disproves that it shows the scheme without that

document. the prosecution has much less of a case i think i remember the moment because i always ask michael with the number 35 can remember we put these checks on television in february 2019, by the way, cohen is now being shown the check he received from february, which was signed by eric trump and allen weisselberg, the only one coming from the foundation money that was not supposed to be used from the foundation. >> the rest it's to the checks were signed personally from his personal checking account, but check was drawn from donald j. trump for revocable trust account, we agree that the most is the text, by the way, here. these checks right here, and the handwritten notes we were just looking at are the two best pieces of documentation for the prosecution. i agree with you. >> right. with respect to what what's said in that meeting, that's michael cohen's testimony. you can't hide from that. i don't care what was in the meeting. >> well, the jury is going to care because that's a hard thing to check, speak for themselves don't have a lot of faith but they don't appear one at a time. guys wanted to time well, here's here's and i

think we fundamentally agree, but here's the problem documents don't speak for themselves. >> they are incredibly compelling. and these documents establish a scheme that they established the methods by which they will be broken down. but you have to bring them to life with witness testimony. now, michael cohen is testifying quite persuasively as to what what what's behind the numbers on the page. but by themselves in isolation, yes. they established repayment scheme but would you convict a defendant on the basis of just that piece of paper alone? no. you would bring in witness testimony to help establish every every number but they get the chance alone. >> and that's 35,000 checks would go jamie, go owner in the court order in the court game again, go jess quickly we don't know how the jurors are going to take all this in too badly. paraphrase credibility is in the eye the holder, but let's just remember donald trump is known to have a tenuous relationship with the

truth. just ask our friend, daniel dale, who does daily fact checks on him. i think it's important to remind everybody here. i'm sure the prosecution will address somewhere along the line. michael cohen's perjury and his history. michael cohen is not getting anything for his testimony in this case. he already went to prison. he doesn't want to go back to pressed to say no immunity if he perjured himself in this setting, he's going back to prison. he does not want to do so. the check stub states that the payment that they're making here is for a retainer agreement and that is significant because if it is not true, that is a false, right? as a false business record, cohen confirms a description on the check stub was a false statement. so again, these are even though this is a case that has stormy daniels mentioned and all of

that. and karen mcdougal and tabloids and all sorts of drama. this is a business records case. the crimes are actually in what's being described it right now, you take just the crimes as you describe alleged crimes, the election, the alleged crimes that you describe in this, but it is in furtherance of defrauding the people because of the election that elevates the us, right? and so all well, that drama that you talk about is the other piece of this case, which is that this was done because he was a candidate for president and was defrauding the public and but also, but also we should know the march check from the revocable trust was signed by donald trump jr. and allen weisselberg. >> cohen says was this in fact a retainer for that month, hoffinger asks us the prosecuting attorney no, ma'am. says cohen was the description in the check stub a false statement. she asks cohen confirms it was jurors earlier saw these records during testimony from jeff mcconney and trump organization employee

deborah tarasoff, let me ask a question here, guy lives and this is a theory, if they paying michael cohen for his prior payment to stormy daniels, and we're falsely calling me he's legal retainer fees to hide that that then the answer is yes, technically, an important distinction to make here is that what we're seeing here is evidenced of a misdemeanor of falsifying business records. >> there's the additional campaign question, which is the one that we've been talking about for two weeks now. yeah. >> that's what bumps it up to the level as of right now. misdemeanor is abundantly clear right now, based on the evidence, are so mcconney, who worked at the trump organization earlier testified that he would forward the invoices, these fake invoices, according to michael cohen, $35,000 retainer every month, which is not real. it's not really for services rendered. it is actually just a

repayment, according to michael cohen, he would forward these faking invoices to tarasoff, an employee of the trump organization who handles accounts payable for the checks to be cut to cohen, laney davis, as far as you understand, stood it. did allen weisselberg, donald trump jr. eric trump know what was going on here because obviously they are not on trial. yes. weisselberg's document, i think the juror we're going to look at the document the way i first looked at it it has a numbers game divided by 12, right? no reference to legal services, right? it's a bonus doubled its paying for fake people to show up when he came down the escalator doubled its his out-of-pocket plus the money paid $130,000, doubled, adding to 430,000 divided by 12, the documents speaks for itself. there's no reference to legal fees for me. that was the end of the jurors have heard previous testimony that the payments changed in april from the revocable trust to trump's personal account?

again, hoffman's you're just ask cohen, were any of those checks in fact, for work during the months described in those checks, stubs and cohen says, no, ma'am, the trump organization change the way that trump's personal expenses were being handled? that's the only significance there as and i'm sorry to repeat myself. my friend, the document by weisselberg is going to be the document the juror is looked at in his handwriting and they're going to say these are numbers doubled divided by 12. they're not about legal fees. the president united states signed a check in the oval office from his personal checking account is a fake number because there's 100, $420,000 divided by 12, $35,000, right? >> question to red finch. i thought red finch, which was the 50 of the hundred and 80 another is really annoying. >> so sorry 420 is 180 times two plus one 50, the one 50 is christmas bonus that michael cohen felt screwed out of. >> the one at is twice what

michael cohen felt. he paid. so that he you wouldn't have to do here here's the here's the weisselberg the weisselberg document. we're talking about $180,000 so that he wouldn't have to pay taxes. on it. but the other thing is of the hundred 80 to divide that, it's 130 to stormy daniels, 50 to red finch. what is redfin? finch was everybody is numb to donald trump, right? so we say this just as we day that he wrote checks, is president and that he said 150 cash in the tape. and we're all numb to that. really. he said 150 cash and the tape. everybody takes for granted. donald trump flies. this is an example. he paid for people to show up as we'll people when he came down the escalator, that's what i thought it was paying for for for for fake did two things. >> it baked a poll on forbes. are we shocked? >> sounds like a great organization. >> now, we shocked about donald trump, the baking, and then read french. >> and that was the 50,000 double to 100. so if you take

each item and double, you get to four 30 divided by 12. and that's the checks that donald trump stiffening red finch, right? that's right. so he was stepping so cohen had the pavement was just like forgive me for like thing playing the layman and the person at home here for a second. because as i'm trying to wrap my head around this, i'm flashing back. you guys remember the movie, the american president joe with michael douglas. do you remember how we tries to buy flowers for his girlfriend and they won't let him out of the white house. he doesn't have a wallet. he doesn't have a way to pay for something soufer supernormal. >> i just think it really contrasts with exactly what you're describing where jumped to it. >> know what i'm i'm arguing that we shouldn't be because we put it on president of the united at it states whose signing checks himself. i mean, this is not normal just to behind the curtains moment. i said to michael the night before the testimony when we put these checks, which was sent to me by my on my telephone from mrs. cohen because i said, where are those checks? i said when we put these checks signed by a president as we payment to you on national television, this

hearing is going to be halted as the preska running to power their stories. there was a big yawn when we learn that the president i'd states sitting in the oval office, there's writing these jets from his personal bank account. so we are numb to this donald trump pattern of lying and they also what we shouldn't say so half and you're right now just inside the courtroom. attorney susan hobson, profit, juror with the prosecution, is having michael cohen go through the july invoice. he has michael cohen has the glasses on the edge of his nose. as he's reading the invoice allowed, trump is in the courtroom leaning over and whispering to todd. blanche his attorney, as cohen is walking through the paperwork, just to bring you inside the courtroom the defense table is kind of wild. do it this way. the defense table is kinda overhear and i'm getting all confused because of their defense tables on the left side of the room, the witness stand is on the right side of the room. >> so donald trump, de and michael cohen do not

necessarily make eye contact if they don't want to, could i do taxes 101, please reimbursements or not taxable and i'm sure the prosecutors will make this point. i think it goes to intent motivation by trump. what do we know about trump? >> he is cheap steps people. >> and then if he has to, he pays he paid more to michael cohen to make him whole on taxes. >> it's a very direct piece of evidence that these were not reimbursements because they wanted to look like income. they wanted to the reason they're going month by month, by the way, is because each months invoice check and paste up is charged as a separate approx one is a different crimes. each one is a falsified i'd record allegedly. and michael cohen la coats, is talking about how every one of these invoices was fake for not for services rendered. he was not on retainer. this is all

being repaid for the hush money payment to stormy daniels as well as the money to red finch, this organization? and it did bogus crowds and bogus poll people being pulled on the internet plus some other money for the christmas bonus. he felt he got stiff data. laura it is so important to go through all this information. and of course, getting to the real core of the issue here, ladies, i'm here with kristen and also paula. >> we can't keep talking about these issues in a vacuum or in isolation. >> it's time to start with the top with the compartmentalizing . they have got dreams, then a fulsome case, michael cohen told him job on the witness stand is to be that narrator. we've already heard little like almost every witness up to him has been a trailer a preview. now, he is the full movie in many respects and are going go through methodically the august invoices because right. paula, there are 34 different counts here about actual business records not just checks but invoices do exactly. that's why the prosecutor goes through each check that michael cohen

receives. >> she's also acknowledging the false she describes it a false invoice that what he submitted rise and she's going document there document and cohen is confirming each time that yes. >> is falsely states the payment was for services rendered during that i'm not remember, cohen was part of this conspiracy. he was submitting false invoices that then arrive on the desks of these accounts at the trump organization, deb tarasoff and geoff mcconney, who both testified a couple of days ago and explain. yeah, i got the invoice. i put it in the system, i click the tab and then the check the check went out for someone designed. >> this important piece of the case, going through this, i would argue that this is pretty easy right? here's a check. did you get it? there's a false invoices. did you submit it. >> i think what's going to be a little bit harder for cohen is after we get past this, the alleged conspiracy, getting into what happens once he breaks from trump, i think that is where the julie may start to see him as an unreliable narrator it's important to think about that because there's the moments in time we're talking about, of

course, the fact that he is now presumed to be bias against prompt. >> i mean, in presumption, i mean, he is gone all up to talk about his views on them in recent times, the prosecutors want to have a frozen in time moment like a mosquito and amber, they want to say this at the time you were at this particular point in time, was talking about the prospect confronted with cohen each time that it comes through, again, who signed the checks? donald j. trump this important think about that then and now paint the picture for us though, kristen, these all these 34 documents, this wasn't while he was not the president. these are all post inauguration. they should go back in time to witness testimony earlier they were talking about a very different place at the trump organization with donald trump at the head and with his son's. >> yeah. so when we talk about trump org at this time, this is kind of what we heard from mcconney as well as just various witnesses who were there. >> this was a chaotic time at the trump organization, but this was also a chaotic time at the white house. donald trump did not think that he was going to be president and was

completely unprepared to be president. just remember what we're talking about. now as he runs for president in 2024 donald trump has an entire organization in place, essentially, the wheels behind the motion to put together a transition for a white house stuff that he never had that because they didn't expect him to actually win. so it was chaos. there, there was also chaos at the trump organization, as we know, they were trying to put of this wall between donald trump, the man donald trump organization, and the fact that he was now, you said the leader of the free world, as they're painting this, this is a chaotic time, but i do want to note one thing you said about the michael cohen frozen in time and where we are now as mosquito the font sorry is that the way i thought? >> but the defense is going to take that right out because what they wanna do is show who he has become. because part of this is that the entire case hinges on michael cohen. they're going to want to paint him as somebody who has an ax to grind, who is built an

entire real i don't want to say empire, but brand on being anti donald trump. and that's what you're going to see from them. and that's likely what you're going to start to see from the prosecution as they lay this out because they know what's coming. >> oh, the prosecution will be doing a disservice to their case unless they tried to front all these issues around his convictions about the perceived bias, all those things are important. the irony, of course, police is there going to try to rehabilitate somebody for their lack of truthfulness while the entire case is about falsified records. so who is going to be the key witness or somebody who would be the most reliable narrator about a document involving false documents, somebody who actually contribute to having be false perhaps the jury will see it that way. >> i think what's extraordinary about him is not just the criminal record, right? line to the irs lying to congress. right. lying to banks, in addition to election crimes related to this scheme. and the karen mcdougal payment that you can work ground as you know, people have to take the stand or kernel records all the

time. >> the bigger issue for prosecutors and for mr. cohen is the fact that for years his entire identity has been relentlessly attacking the defendant on every medium known to man, books, podcasts, and television, social media, not just identity, but financial gain exactly. he profited off of this. the same argument they made about stormy daniels much i think easier to make about michael cohen. this is what could potentially sow seeds of doubt, reasonable doubt in the minds of the jury. it's really an extraordinary challenge for prosecutors. one, i've never really seen before. well, yeah, they're all right now, discussing the november records, an avid december payment again, we're talking about 34 counts and this might be the point people think, well, this seems a little bit monday. >> no, this is the details. this is the actual case. it's not about whether there was actual sexual encounter it's not about whether there's actually trickle can then affair. it's about whether there were falsified records and an important part here, kristen, the idea that his name donald j. trump is on the

bottom of these checks the jurors well, remember, and they have notes to confirm it, that this has been a painted picture of trump, who is meticulous. he is a micromanager. he's caching 50 cent checks. he is talking about in his books before from chetty came on the stand about how you gotta be in control. he is firing a former employee and a tongue in cheek way or mr. mcconkie saying you've got to check these invoices. his name on the bottom line is very telling. >> it is we know that donald trump is a micromanager. he's still is to this day campaign statements don't go out without him looking over at first, he is constantly hiring his own people. he watches them on television, decides he likes them, brings them into the fold much to the chagrin of many other people on his campaign or orbit who are skeptical as to why this person is now joining their team and now we've got the last one he says, they go through all the different 34 counts and they ask why this glass he says because i had been reimbursed $420,000. remember, of course, it went

from 100 and 30, then you multiply that by been plus $50,000. that red finch then multiply by two to have the tax benefit as well. and men through the moses, as in our bonus, go ahead. >> and that's one thing also. that's an interesting part of all of us two is michael cohen. i think that's probably the prosecution trying to play into this kind of money situation with michael cohen because the fans, it's going to bring that up to how he felt like he was stiff. he was constantly talking about how he was not a donald trump because he wasn't part of the administration that he hadn't even been considered. the fact that he felt like he was getting chipped on his bonus. i mean, all of these things are gonna play into what the defense says as well. so that's going to be part of this talk about loyalty guys. because this is really kind of a different witness in all of this. we're witnessing that what happens when there is perceived loyalty or not. i'm talking about allen weisselberg, in particular, because there is a real split-screen happening between not only of the presence of michael cohen, but the absence of allen weisselberg. we're just seeing on the screen

handwritten note oh, it's that detailed the way this would be structured from allen weisselberg. he has been mentioned a lot from prior witnesses. he is presently in rikers. he is not going to be making an appearance. he likely would not be cooperating there it is right now, just the idea of how this is all to break down to repay him i do wonder the fact that that unless number is not here, paula. yeah, that might actually a nerve to the benefit of donald trump. oh, yeah absolutely. >> it's something that i can report that the defense intends to seize on the fact that he hasn't been on the government's witness list he will not be called and prosecutors who could have potentially tried to call him. it's unclear if you'd be co-operative likely he just would have pleaded the fifth, but they didn't even try which column if they're just going to be exactly. so i think the judge alluded to this. i believe it was yesterday saying no, we're not even gonna let you bring in his severance agreement to try to establish why he may not be here because that really i'm not going to allow you to do that because it doesn't prove why he's not here. so it's an issue that's hanging out there. it's not clear how the prosecutors are going to button this up for the

jury, but they have to address it because of three people were allegedly involved in a conspiracy. ones, the defendant, once michael cohen and one you haven't heard from, that is going to be something that is hanging out there for jurors. so that is a big thing. i'm watching for how to both sides handle the allen weisselberg of at all, it's also a reminder that what pure loyalty to donald trump gets you is somehow you're involved in the criminal justice system you're either gonna be subpoena and you're gonna be on the witness stand or like allen weisselberg, you wind up in rikers force a megacolon is also served time in prison. a part of that was related to his own business dealings, but also you coming out in support politically. i mean, there's two juries here, right? there's the court of public opinion, but i think trump is also planning to every single time he leaves the courthouse and instead is talking to the cameras. you have politicians who were coming the vip stakes is in full swing, right now. you can report there are some members of congress who already have had been there. another person who they'd ramaswamy, who will intend to be there and there's gonna be a press conference. it's worth outside

to do some political bidding for trump today. >> well, laura, use of this yesterday and i can't stop thinking about it. i thought it was the perfect way to describe it. the new loyalty test is showing up at court for donald trump, and that really is what we're seeing. half of people that we're seeing are people who are vying to be at the top of the ticket yesterday, ohio senator jd vance today, north dakota governor doug burgum these are people who are in contention who donald trump has mentioned to be vice president, then you have speaker mike johnson. >> well, why is that important? >> mike johnson is somebody who needs donald trump. he right now is still holding onto his speakership and he needs the support of the former president. he has enjoyed the support of the former president. you mentioned the ramaswamy essentially, this is coming, becoming a who's who of a potential trump administration. people who might be in the cabinet, who might be at the top of the ticket, just people showing their loyalty and we are told that some of these people are actually volunteering to come they're reaching out to trump himself or to the campaign and saying they want to show their support. >> because remember, he is still the republican nominee knee and there is a thought

that he could be president again, and they're gonna wanna show up for him. also, we're seeing something that cohen's that he reviews something from madame tussaud's museum there about melania. he was also not paying for the work four and melania trump a theme that we're hearing more and more about it's interesting because they did not show up when you had stormy on the stand there showing up. now, when you've gotten michael cohen on the sand, clearly they are aware of the optics as well. i want to bring in former us district judge from pennsylvania, john e. jones, the third you have been closely following this case, your honor, as well. and you and i had a conversation yesterday about the potential for the defense before michael cohen took the stand to essentially say, your honor, there's not even enough to go to a jury with this. they have not connected the dots where in day two of a direct examination there now i'll making the documents, the star witness, in addition to testimony, michael cohen. how do you see the role of these documents playing really for a jury who is accustomed to hearing from people well, i think apropos of

our conversation yesterday, laura, that the acquittal the motion for an acquittal or a directed verdict that ship obviously has the judge isn't going to throw this out at the end of the prosecution's case. >> and and, you know, sometimes as you know, as a litigator, trials can be kind of stultifying and dlb, but there's a purpose to going document by document and it does make an impression on a jury if it's properly presented. >> you know, we're going through and seeing that he is confirming now emails with trump org, general counsel, alan garten. you can imagine the jurors who has who have notes in front of them. they've got probably a list of who's who's not have names that have been raised with the course of this entire trial, not the least of which has been allen weisselberg his handwritten notes are a part of this. people have mentioned them. they've had his subordinates

testify. but you haven't heard from allen weisselberg how has that traditionally play it in your experience when there is a third person as a part of this three-legged stool one of the defendant, one is the witness, and one is nowhere to be found because it's in rikers you know, here's what i'm going to say about that in the voir dire and the selection of the jury you can only ask so many questions i can't believe that there aren't several people on this jury who haven't been watching the news and who aren't aware of the fact that allen weisselberg or is in rikers at this point. >> i mean, we're assuming that nobody seeing the jury knows that. i'll bet they do and i'll bet that comes out. will that be something talked about publicly know because as you know, juries deliberate in secret, but i'm not sure it's

as big a problem as as summary anticipating were also learning as well that michael cohen has confirmed that the 420,000 he was reimbursed, he says was not for legal work that was done he's also saying that to the jury that when stormy daniels went public with her story back in 2018, trump wanted to take legal action against her for breaching the nba that we've heard part of this before, your honor, about the idea of trumping agitated, annoyed. >> he said that he was contacted by the way by eric trump, as well as mr. trump regarding how to go forward with the arbitration proceeding. this is all coming in front of this jury. but again, revisiting this issue of the absence of adh weisselberg, the documents themselves, how do you anticipate what kind of moments you think might come up in the cross-examination of michael cohen. do you see the jury having to get a instruction of some kind as to when they talk about his convictions i'm not sure that

there's going to have to be a conviction, but i'll tell you what. >> michael cohen is going to be pretty much disemboweled on on cross-examination. it's a question of they are how much of his end trails are pulled out by todd blanche, this is going to be quite a show. this will be odd blanches cross examination moment in his life. and he's got to discredit this witness because that's the only way you win this case in my view. he's got to create reasonable doubt or appeal to that one or two jurors who he hopes will hang them up even if the other jurors want to convict. but it's going to be spirited. and i think based on my prior position i think about justice mershid one imagine he's going to have to referee this, this fight between todd blanche and michael cohen, and he's got all kinds of interesting character sitting

staring at them included governors, senators unsuccessful presidential candidates. and he's also got a defendant who's doing something that most defendants never have the ability to do, which is getting out in public at the end of the trial, de and shrieking about how corrupt as and how conflicted he is if ever, there was a time when a judge had to tune out the outside noise. >> here here's one of them because were all too human. >> it's, it's incredible to me should know what he's having doing door to sit and preside in this case and, judge, you make a great point about judge masan. >> remember there is this active gag order to which trump's team initially, but we going half ago, wanted to have removed with respect to michael cohen as one person they thought didn't not need the protection, felt that he was no shrinking violet could go toe to toe and had been on the attacking side of everything. but you make the point there had been members of congress, there have been other

mouthpieces and spokespersons who had been teak talking about the people that trump cannot go after if you're the judge in this matter and you hear numbers of congress or other people trying to do that, which trump cannot does it? how do you show that you are going to remain unbiased and unbothered to preserve your reputation before maybe even an appellate court well, you keep your head down and do your job, laura, that's all you can do at this point. >> i don't think that judge merchan is on aware of what's going on around him judges know that they can see that with their own hi they read the news, they consume the news just like everybody else does. and you just, you just have to power through what they're seeing. but this is really unprecedented we're seeing a criminal trial where people who are additional thing to become the vice president, the united states, are attending and

despite the sort of sorted material in the trial, they're sitting there giving the deaths there to the judge. i don't think in the annals of american jurisprudence, we've ever seen anything like this it is a striking time and a moment. >> i wonder what happened today when the cross and whether the composure i'm michael cohen will continue. judge. thank you so much for joining us today and getting your insight. i want to go back to washington, dc. jake thinking about this moment it is extraordinary for a number of reasons. but jake also the fact that we know if we can recall what type of cross stormy daniel's received if they were trying to keep their powder dry, figuratively speaking from michael cohen, then we are ahead for a lot of fireworks indeed, a lot of fireworks because the case in many ways hinges on the credibility of michael cohen, although there is plenty of documentary evidence that supports the claims he has made.

>> let me just go through what has been going on in the trial right now. cohen's attorney was being paid by the trump organization, asked if that was important to him at the time, cohen says pretty, much so. and this is about other monies and other duties that michael cohen did for donald trump. he said that the last filing he did that last invoice. he did that was bogus was december 1, 2017. why was the last one he said because i've been reimbursed the $420,000. he said that he did minimal work for the trumps in 2017, and he wasn't paid for it. there was something involving madame tussaud's and melania trump when the museum wanted to create a model of her, he did it. he didn't expect to be paid for it. he didn't fill out an invoice for her. there was something where michael cohen said he was working with attorney marc can casa wits on summer on the summer servos matter and deliver documents to trump on the oval office regarding that elie honig, what is the summer servo smack?

>> remember the moment of testimony and michael collins said that donald trump told them when he announced for president, a lot of women are going to be coming forward. this is another one we've heard less about her than karen mcdougal google and stormy daniels summers are those was a contestant on the tv show the apprentice back in 2006, years later when trump enters the political scene, she makes allegations that donald trump touched her and appropriately sexually unwanted kissing, unwanted touching, that kind of thing trump, as he is want to do, then publicly calls her a liar and says it's all fake. >> he then sues him for defamation. >> again, this probably similar to e. jean carroll than in these respects this lawsuit, whoever ends up going nowhere, it ends up getting settled and i would put that in scare quotes in 2021 for $0 for non monetary exchange of something or other so eventually it goes away, but she was one of many people who was coming forward with allegations and we should know where michael cohen is testifying now is really important. he's getting into his false statements to congress. >> let's talk about yes. so in addition to the other work he

did for the trump's, he basically said that he continued to lie for trump. he made a lot of money this is michael cohen in court. you can believe it or not. he said he made approximately $4 million in 2017 and 18 from consulting work he did for other clients. so he also acknowledged that the one of the reasons he was able to attract other clients is because he was known as donald trump's lawyers. so other people came to him and so the arrangement, it sounds like as mine michael cohen, basically didn't build donald trump still called himself trump's attorney and was able to gin up all sorts of clients for on that on that that way by by by being known as trump's lawyer, he said he continued to live for trump because of that. he had an agreement with swi or patent box said two offices in new york and washington. he held the title of trump's personal attorney for approximately 15 months. why did he continue to lie? cohen said out of loyalty and in order to protect him, then this

is where everything starts to fall apart in 2017, cohen was subpoenaed to testify to the house and senate intelligence committees, russia investigation missions in 2017. and this was behind closed doors. this testimony cohen said he felt a tremendous amount of pressure. it's the first time you've ever been subpoenaed by congress to come in and testify cohen's attorney, this is what i've mentioned before was being paid by the trump organization. asked if that was important to him at the time, he said very much so and then cohen, is it now? he made false statements to congress cohen said he felt he needed trump's legal support at the time he felt he needed it was extremely important to me the questions and the lies were about the trump mocked trump tower moscow project specifically the number of times that i claim to a spoken to mr. trump about the project, as well as the time in period for those conversations. that's what michael cohen lied about and was later found guilty of lying to congress, asked why he lied. cohen said, quote, because i was saying on mr. trump's message that there

was no russia, russia, russia, and co confirmed that this time in 2018, he continued to pressure people like keith davidson to also lie that except that he was lying about the deals with karen mcdougal and stormy daniels asked why he did so cohen said in order to protect mr. trump, susan hoffinger, the prosecuting attorney, is now asking cohen about the january 2018 wall street journal story about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniel's cohen says at the time he did not tell the truth about his involvement in the payoff and the fact that trump repaid him. so what does going cohen testified that he spoke with trump about the false statement. he was going to give to the media. so lanny davis, what we have here is michael cohen acknowledging his lies they were going to come out sooner or later better, i guess in the prosecution and michael cohen's view to have them come out on his terms, acknowledging his leinz an he is saying he did these lies that he was later found guilty of on behalf of donald trump.

>> well, actually, he did that way before what we're hearing today. he did that in front of the american people and internationally on live television? >> no, i know, but i'm just saying again, before this jury, i'm saying before this jury, he is saying what he said back in front of the american people. i lie, i'm ashamed and he's got a look at the jury and be believed that he's regretful whether the jury, except somebody who owns up to his eyes, and whether they then look at documents that support what he's saying is the question for the jury, and i do understand there might be some doubts in the jury, but i do know that he acknowledged it's being a liar four donald trump, way before, and the night before his testimony before congress, we talked about how he was going to own his lies and not try to defend themselves. so cohen says that when he told mr. trump the false statement, he was going to give to the media about the stormy daniels story, about $130,000 payment about the fact that he you paid it and i'll trump paid him back.

>> trump responded, good, good. when he gave him that statement hoffinger is now walking cohen through text messages he sent with keith davidson, the attorney for both karen mcdougal and stormy daniels get text messages in january 2018 around this time of the wall street journal story. but brandon, i mean, these are the car cards that the prosecution has been dealt. they have this witness who is admitted to have told lies what is the best way to present this information, this potentially damaging information to the jury? >> well, jake susan hoffinger is smart to get it out ahead of time because certainly todd blanche will do hello, but with all due respect to land ease recitation of 11, he came clean. it may a culpa eli and any light again. and then 11 again and he lied to the newspaper. he lied to congress. he lied on his tax term he lied when he did the refi and every time i'm done, lion i know this jurors can tolerate a lot.

they really don't like liars. and if there's a mote between everything we've heard so far and the felony that second crime. and his the bridge across the moat, the jury is going to have a tough time with it, and the judge, when struck them false and one false and all, if you believe this man lied once you can disregard this entire test. >> so keep that right now what's going on is they're describing how michael cohen tried to get keith davidson to lie as well. this is around the time that the wall street journal breaks the story of this payment to stormy daniel's $130,000 often juror is now walking michael cohen through these text messages that he sent here's the wall street journal story from january 2018, trump lawyer arranged $130,000 payment for adult film stars. silence hoffinger is walking cohen through the text messages you sent with keith davidson to get him to deny it to davidson, texted cohen january pretense 2018. quote, wall street

journal called stormy. she didn't answer. they say they are running story and have deadline of tonight for her to comment. cohen says back to keith davidson, write a strong denial comment for her like you did before. so that is what's going on right now. hopkin's, you're asked who benefited from this agreement? the defense objects lawyers are now in a sidebar, having been in court last week to tell you what that looks like. it looks like nine lawyers run into the front of the room and they're all huddling and the judge sits up and talks to you, can't hear anything. and those of us who use those in the audience who use binoculars to try to see faces or whatever our total what we cannot use our binoculars during that period. they don't want anybody reading any lips. so that's what's going on right now. what exactly is the objection here? hoffinger, who benefits from the agreement? the defense objects. lawyers now at the sidebar, the objection is sustained. what why why would the objection be sustained? >> well, it sounds like it's probably irrelevance objection. >> but then hop injured comes back and basically re-ask the same question. so sometimes it's just a matter of

wordings. >> so would benefit from the joint defense agreement. cohen says, i believe several people would benefit, but certainly president trump. so the idea is it's name wasn't just trump. it was a bunch of people benefited from this hoffinger. then asked, did you understand that you would benefit michael cohen says yes, ma'am, he would benefit from from this joint defense agreement. so i guess the idea was maybe they were maybe the defense was afraid that they were insinuating that michael cohen was being haidt to lie, et cetera, et cetera. and she said no, no, no. i i'm not trying to get him to say that he benefited from a to he didn't have to pay for his own attorney. i think that's exactly right. and a lot of times what happens a sidebars is sort of, you just need to reconfigure the question a little bit so it doesn't lead down that for beta road, but the de did get the question in and she did get the answer. so cohen says he knew that stormy daniels statement denying the sexual encounter was false cohen says he told trump he was getting the denial from daniel's. >> so casey what we have here is michael cohen,

instrumentalists at the center according to him so maybe you don't believe them, but according to him, he's at the center of this cover he's telling donald trump, i'm getting a denial. he's orchestrating the denial with keith davidson, who stormy daniels, attorney. he is also lying to the wall street journal. he is also telling these lines in an orchestrating leinz as well, right? >> and he's testifying to say that he did that because he was trying to demonstrate in part because he was trying to demonstrate how loyal he was to donald trump. >> and also he wanted to protect donald trump. he loved donald trump, right? and i do think that that's really where at least if if i were a juror in this case and you're trying to decide, okay. this guy is not knowledge and he lied. are the circumstances that he finds himself in now, ones that allow him to tell the truth, are they that much are they that materially different? i would argue that if you look at the way that trump is treated, michael cohen in the years since they had their major break, you could plausibly say, okay this man was under a lot of pressure. he was the president of the united states, was very wealthy in control of

her. i mean, michael cohen's whole life was wrapped up in what we we have this theme because we've been hearing this from michael cohen throughout his testimony about whenever he did anything for donald trump, he would run to donald trump's office and tell him, a bolus, look what i did for you and like any very important to him to demonstrate that he had achieved that for him. and this happens again he said he told trump he was getting the denial one to get credit for expressing that i was continued to continuing to ensure that he was protected and stayed loyalty wanted the credit for it. cohen is now explaining his january 17th, 2018 tax to davidson. i have her tentatively scheduled for hanadi tonight call me after your trial. cohen said he wanted her to go on hannity that night. jamie again, go i don't think i've ever heard it. was this was this is in the record before. did we know that he had tried to get her under the hannity? >> this was before we knew that already. >> cohen said, i wanted to

continue to promote the statement that there was no relationship and then trump had no involvement and then they go and find a place where stormy daniel's would be able to tell these lies and that's the show they picked so this is one of the many times i wish there were cameras in the courtroom, which i do every minute because i'm very curious about michael cohen's tone. now, he exceeded expectations yesterday by all accounts his demeanor was calm. he calls the attorney, ma'am. this is now a pressure point, not the same as when he goes under cross-examination, but this it's starting to get uncomfortable. >> i just want to say to that point, i believe kara scannell and the court reporter earlier said that his tone thus far throughout the de has been even tell now what by the way, now we have the explanation as to why we were denied hi, this bit of broadcast history. >> cohen reads more tax davidson, her attorney says she stormy daniel's was not able to go on hanadi. that evening.

so cohen texted davidson later that night. keith, the wise men all believed the story is dying and don't think it's smart for her to do any interviews let her do her thing, but nova interviews at all with anyone, then a little wiser than michael i have to say the suggestion that you should have gone on hanadi to do anything of any kind, would have been a questionable what it would have definitely brought the story more oxygen as they say. and ultimately decided, you know what, that people aren't really picking up the story to the degree that we were afraid that they were going to. so let's move on the jury saw these texts, exchanges when they were entered into evidence earlier through keith davidson's testimony. >> so my point on tone is just if he stays calm do these lies makes sense to the jurors? >> do they understand that he was doing this to protect the boss and also when he's quoting donald trump, again,

this is not some anonymous defendant does it sound like donald trump in these cases? >> and i don't mind who had the motivation in all of this. do you bill brennan you don't think that the jury is going to distinguish between the lines he did for donald trump and what he's saying now. i mean, because there is an argument that i think lanny would make and landing, please jump in at any time where it's like, look, this guy was very loyal to trump and he lied, yes, he has a record as liar. yes. but almost all of that, removing the taxi taxi cab medallions most of that was just in service to trump. >> yankee can't make a prosecution can make the argument that all of the lies where at the behest of the defendant he lied on his taxes, had nothing to do with the defendant. he's lied in other areas and i'm not surprised that his demeanor is control

because he's been through a lot. this man, he's been to prison. he's testified before congress, he has been publicly humiliated. he has had the benefit of phenomenal legal counsel, mr. davis. i mean, he's ready for this. we'll see how his demeanor is on cross, but nobody no jury's going to want to hear he made me do it. >> he told me to jump up nobody wants to hear that. >> let me just update everybody with what's going on so happens. you're susan orphans, you're the prosecuting attorney, is now showing michael cohen the january 30 stormy daniels statement. there are two stormy daniels denied tiles issued in january 2018. one of them for the wall street journal story, one of them right before she goes on, jimmy kimmel both of them are denials. both of them are lies. both of them, according to stormy daniels, that she did not have any sexual relationship with that man, mr. trump, and that there was there's no hush money paid. hoffinger shows the january 30

daniel statement which was issued before she was on kimmel cohen says he knew the statement is false. how did he know? because he's the one who wrote it. >> coffins your asks whether he knew the statement falsely said that she did not receive hush money cohen said, again, he knew it was false because i'm the one who paid it atlantic. sorry so i've never been a prosecutor, but i'm told by prosecutors that people are convicted, not just an organized crime cases, but in other cases where the principal witness are murderers, are liars, are people coming at it? >> it isn't a testify and juries will convict using not saintly witnesses. so i'm sure that bill and i agree that it's up to this jury and we're both speculating and his speculation may be better than mine because he may be more experienced, but i am saying that holding michael standard to be a saint, wendy's one his lies for donald trump almost all of them except the tax issues. and whether the jury buys his contrition is the key.

a lot of witnesses in these big cases that have criminal records that resulted in convictions. they're not showing contrition, so we just have to see about that. >> fani lanny, there's a there's a distinction though between the example you use and what we're seeing here i've handled a lot of mob type cases and gang rape cases, and the prosecutors will get up and say hey, we wish we could bring you priests, rabbis, and clergymen these are the people that these defendants associated with. and they shot people, they stab people i believe stored at people, but not so much with the lying this guy, former lawyer, this guy just lies. and then he lies again. then he likes again. i'm sure mr. blanche will get out. the fact that he tried to quote monetize his role as personal attorney, and that as we sit here on this panel today he is shot being a reality, a reality show called the fixer. this guy is an opportunist people love the story of redemption. once, but

they don't like coming back to the well and back to back just it's just too much with i honor, your speculation, as long as we both agree, i'm speculating your space i've seen what a jury is going to think about donald trump and his lies versus michael cohen and his lies. yeah, i'm prosecutors right now are entering into evidence a february 2018 letter to the federal election commission about this payment to stormy daniels in response to the ftc complaint, cohen ones lawyer wrote in the ladder in a private transaction in 2016 before the us presidential election, mr. cohen used his own personal funds to facilitate a payment of $130,000 to ms stephanie clifford? that's stormy daniels, birth name. neither the trump org, the organization nor the trump campaign was a party to the transaction with ms clifford and neither reimbursed mr. cohen for the payment directly or indirectly. now that the trump organization or the trump campaign that's interesting cohen says on the stand it's a true statement,

but it's misleading because neither the trump organization nor the trump campaign was mr. trump itself. so that's what i was kept picking up on like it is true that the trump organization and the trump campaign did anything to do but that mr. trump did. cohen says on the stand it's a true statement, but it's misleading so is are you lead to mislead the federal election commission if not expressly lying to them, you're not allowed to mislead them. and i don't like that answer if i'm on michael cohen side here, if on the prosecutors just say yes, it's a false statement, it's misleading step it sounds to go back to the clinton and sample. it sounds very much like what the definition of is, is well, you don't want the jury thinking this is a guy who makes technically true, but miss leading statements. >> and if i if i can pick up on that land a you've given us some really helpful insight into things michael cohen has said and given us helpful previews they're coming up to a point where michael cohen pleads guilty to personal tax fraud and personal bank fraud relating to the taxicab medallion business. >> now, michael pled guilty to those crimes in federal court. judge pauley, in 2018, under oath he has since said under

oath and a civil suit that he was actually lying when he pled guilty and that he did not commit bank. so that's a which isn't going to be where hold on, hold on your perrier, forgetting what she said and you know what she said that he was coerced on a friday night, he was threatened to have his wife indicted on monday morning. and under those circumstances, danya perry of former sdny prosecutors said he was coerced into that guilty okay. >> so let me let me bring back people to this trial in this case, if i can so cohen is now being showed text messages he sent to the new york times. politics or prize-winning maggie haberman, who we know and respect in february 2018, cohen writes to haberman on february 6, 2018, big boss just approved me respond wanting to complain to meeting the ftc complaint and statement please start writing and i will call you soon. big boss is of course a reference to mr. trump cohen confirms and he says, i was going to give it to her first, so she had the scoop. this is presumably an article that maggie haberman wrote about

donald trump's attorney, michael cohen denying that the trump organization or the trump campaign had anything to do with this payment, but acknowledging that he gave the payment, which is interesting, david channeling, right? >> so if somehow still trying to protect the boss in some way as he, as he said, he was trying to do, but it's beginning to unravel right before our eyes. >> hi and i don't think you guys, we all remember covering this moment, right? >> yeah. so him saying that he made payments, but that trump had nothing to do with it. >> that was never going to be sufficient to end this story. >> that was only going to demand more of us to ask constant questions as you saw, ultimately presented to do the president himself on air force one jamie, right. >> where he said no. right. >> but then thank you. rudy giuliani, because there's always the rudy moment. he comes out and says, oh, yes, yes, yes it's true. they were

reimbursements and i think 24, 48 hours later yeah. >> trump changes his story and it's sort of interesting in the context of this case now where the felony depends on proving that there were what amount to campaign finance violations because the reason that rudy giuliani comes out there that day and says he is to say, well this prove that it wasn't a campaign finance violation was paid from his personal account sort of a full circle. all right. laura coates back to you in new york thank you. >> we are going through all that's happening right now. we're seeing again that trump is not reacting to testimony that's coming in. there's a lot that's happened the name and a lot we're trying to unpack in real order, in real time here, ladies, because this is very significant testimony from somebody who is supposed to be the narrator, whether he is reliable and credible, knock the jury is anyone's guess, but going through methodically, all the invoices going through the documents talking about who's giving orders and beyond going through about whether he's been

paid or not. this is all part of the story. they're telling and we are in, by the way, day two of direct testimony yeah. and i would expect the prosecutors will wrap up with michael cohen today, but right now, things are beginning to get, as we predicted, a little uncomfortable they're walking through how he stormy daniels issue a false statement once her full story became public and he has to atone for that. explain why he helped with that. then he's really not being honest with the fec. right? i've already said how he's been convicted of lying to the irs to congress, to banks, and pleaded guilty to election-related crimes. here again, he is lying again, so we're getting into the many lies of michael cohen, which is very different than yesterday, where he was engaging in this effort to suppress negative story kory's on behalf of trump working very loyally for him setting up this llc, which wasn't totally on the up and up, but now we're getting into a pattern of lies. and this is where the jury has to assess whether they continue to trust

this man, this witness, who really the prosecution is heavily relying on. >> i want to turn quickly to criminal defense attorney ron qv, who is with us as well because it's interesting to thank ron about how one is attempting to rehabilitate ultimately a witness like michael cohen. remember he is not the one who's actually on trial. he's not the defendant in this action. but certainly as somebody who's on the stand, the defense is going to try to use all the things that paula has talked about his credibility, the fact that he has admitted to lying, not only as part of criminal cases, but also in furtherance of the defendant in this action. >> how do you see this all playing out and how the cross might go i think the cross-examination will be extremely lengthy, not because it needs to be but because the client donald trump wants to see his lawyers go after michael cohen for every lie every bad thing michael cohen has ever done. ultimately, though, i don't seem that as

terribly effective. look, i think it's fair to say at best, michael cohen is an approval seeking lackey and he was donald trump's lackey and asieh, an organized crime cases, you have the under boss being very, very, very loyal to the boss not just lying for him, but in more serious cases, committing murder and committing mayhem and committing arson all for the boss. then when you feel betrayed by the boss, as michael cohen owns, story goes, then you turn on the boss with the same degree of, of visceral anger for which you committed your crimes for the boss, it is a common story, a common narrative, and i think the mistake the defense lawyers tend to make generally is you can attack the witness as much as you want but you also have to attack the underlying story. what is michael cohen's saying

that you can prove is not true with respect to the actual charges and that always becomes the problem and that's why the worst killers and terrorists and awful people who are given the best deals to testify end up being believed by juries, not because they're credible people or even tolerable people, but because the story they're telling sounds true and is corroborated by other evidence and other witnesses important when again we don't have crimes committed in front of buses full of nuns and certainly the people who are going to be the ones to witness it's allegedly a business records are those who engage in falsifying behave. >> i'm going to go to kristen holmes on this as well because he brings a really good point here when you talk about what they have to show on the one hand, this credit him to suggest that michael cohen has gone lately robe that he does his own thing. he never would have done anything. he doesn't following orders from now on

trump also means i don't trump was not in control of his own business. it also means that he has to buy trying to paint michael cohen as the ability to be a rogue actor than he is clearly not really the man yeah, obviously something that donald trump is not going to like, but i do want to point out what we're seeing here are at least reading about how donald trump is in the courtroom right now, as these stories are unfolding, he sitting back, his eyes are closed here his remained relatively calm. >> same thing we are hearing from michael cohen that he has hadi measured voice, that he has on message these are two men who are not known for their discipline these are two men who are very reactive. both of them right now are on their best behavior. donald trump has been told not to react, not to have the same kind of reaction he did to stormy daniel's where he was cursing, muttering actively hitting his attorney he is rolling his eyes that kind of thing. instead, he is sitting there looking forward. michael cohen has obviously had hours and hours of preparation. what will be interesting to see

is if any of this changes when the defense does their cross-examination, as you said, is some of this going to get under donald trump skin? some of this going to get under michael cohen skin obviously, the defense is hoping that gets under michael cohen skin and they see some kind of reactive moment because that is what they're hoping to do as they tried to paint him as it's kind of reactive character. who was you said went rogue. >> we bring you back in here, mr. kirby because we're learning a lot of different aspects of it. one of them is that he's running a statement back in 2018 and he says, just because something isn't true doesn't mean that it can't cause you harm or damage i will always protect mr. trump. he also goes on to explain that the line validated what he had said about providing his own funds way for the transactions on this point. in particular, there's been a lot of testimony about an alleged sexual encounter between himself and turned me daniel's references made to catch and kill stories for daniel's as well as karen mcdougal. >> but if you are the prosecution in this case, we don't actually have to prove

that either of those things happened. it just has to matter to the jury that they believed the allegations could possibly come out, which would incentivize a catch and kill and then a cover up. >> well, that's correct. >> even if the jury were to disbelieve stormy daniels, which at this point, given the job that was done by the defense and sort of scoring an own goal with her cross-examination. >> i think the jury probably does believe this daniel's, but even if they did, it become sort of the same issue that you can falsify business records and you can pay cover up on a first stories that are not true. and we know that from this case because there was a story that donald is a false story that donald trump had filed other to child that was being peddled by doorman and they implemented they tried to implement a type of catch and kill around that as well. i think ultimately milley, they didn't pay for it, but excuse me, i want to talk i want to get back to excuse me one second. i want to get some breaking news. we have i want

to bring in paul. i miss because i'll come right back to you. we have some news about an appeal that donald trump has smiled with respect to the gag order. what's going on? >> that's right. he has railed against this gag order also, though, for filed formal appeals. and his appeal against this gag order was just denied by the appellate court here in new york. he has argued that this is unconstitutional. that as a candidate for the presidency, that his speech is political speech, that it should be granted the highest protection, and that he should not have restrictions from the people he can attack. now, under this gag order, he can attack the district attorney, alvin bragg. we know he can any does also seem with the judge judge merchan he rails against the judge almost every single day. >> what he's pivoted from attacking out any witnesses in this case includes stormy daniels and michael cohen, also going after the prosecutors or members of the judge or other people's families. now, with michael cohen, i do want to caveat though, the fact that there were some alleged violations of the gag order somebody that had to do with michael cohen and the judge actually let them slide. he

said that you can't prove it, prove beyond a reasonable doubt that these considering the attacks that he faces from my cohen, are not political speech but here, this appeal of trying to get the gag order overturn are undone, has not succeeded. so that's not a surprise, but they have been really against this litigating against this issue for the former president, it is not a surprise that he has not been successful in getting this overturn, but i will note that the judge has backed off a little bit in terms of the strict enforcement against people who attack him. like for example, michael collins and qb on this very point, it's important to think about, right? because we know that the judge was asked if donald trump were to take the stand, which we know it remains a very big f that he hasn't to decide until after the close of the prosecution's case here. but if you were to take the stand, the prosecution wanted to mention the gag orders in front of the jury, the violations, and the judge said, with respect to the gag order violations, he wasn't we're going to do so as the judge, these juries around him the entire day, they had level of

respect for him, 30 hear his decision that there had been a violation might be unduly prejudicial, but tell me what your reaction is. the fact that they have now denied the appeal expects the gag order it was absolutely no surprise and i don't think there's any a surprise to anybody whatever, however you want to label donald trump's speech the right of a trial judge to protect the integrity of the criminal lead goals system is paramount and, uh, judges power is that its absolute height when it comes to protecting witnesses, jurors, and other trial participants from danger and intimidation. so that was this was always going to play out the way it just played out. the fact that they can't mention the gag order violations, should donald trump testify as irrelevant? they have more than enough material aerial and i think judge merchan made the right call, but i think we should stop speculating about whether or not donald trump's going to

testify. and instead speculate on what excuse he's going to give for not testifying on my bingo card. i have him i'm saying there was no case anyway. so why should i bother? they never had a case. i'm not going to testify. that's my bet on what he's going to say when he doesn't testify. other people should weigh in well, here's a person on your bingo card, kristen holmes. they we didn't think was going to come on their attorney general, jeff sessions is now being mentioned in court today. first of all, there must be a list of people who throughout this trial had been like, please don't say my name. i don't wanna be a part of this. why am i being menchu from the caching kills onto now, but tell us you're talking about them right now because cohen's that he told pecker that i told him that the matter was going to be taken care of and the person of course, who's going to be able to do it with jeff sessions, who was if you may remember, the attorney general at the time, they're talking about number of issues respect to what happened with

pecker and of course, the cachin kills at the wall street journal article from 2018 essentially on ami pecker being concern that this is going to have a long-term effect on, hey, what's obviously he did not want at the time, i still believe at this time he was up for consideration to runtime magazine that i'm not sure if that was still going on, but remember to pecker's testimony about why he felt insecure, uncomfortable about even paying in the first sentence, he was flexing back to a payment or a discussion with then gubernatorial candidate arnold schwarzenegger, and that it came out that there had been some involved in by ami and stories met made them feel as though it had harmful effects gravitation of ami exactly. and so right now they're having a conversation as to what exactly jeff sessions plays, role plays, and he says, essentially that they said i told them that the matter was going to be taken care of. this is cohen to pecker and the person who of course was going to be able to do that was jeff sessions who was attorney general at the time. now one thing to just go

back in time and look at is the fact that attorney general jeff sessions came under a lot of heat because people thought that he would do anything that donald trump wanted him to do. now you are for hearing. michael cohen testified that geoff session was just doesn't she was going to take care of this issue and it would be fine for david pecker regarding ami well, it's interesting too because as you're looking at the courtroom today, and those who are going to be a part of it and inside are also members first of congress were talking earlier today about the fact that there seems to be a bit of a if not a vip stakes more broadly, a cabinet stakes that might be happening as well in the event that donald trump is to secure the presidency again, there's a new barometer at play this might be part of the visible impression for the court of public opinion that once again, you're seeing people vying for his affection politically speaking yes. >> but i will remind you that none of this is new. this is not the first time someone in donald trump's orbit has been brought into a court

appearance. obviously, michael cohen himself, which bell as that allen weisselberg, the people who are sitting in that courtroom now know exactly who the former president and they have decided to give their backing to him regardless of what that might be long term. now, talk about the political consequences. well, if this man does get elected to be the president of the united states, they want to be on his goods, sayyed, they don't want to be focused missing on what the bad sayyed looks like. >> now, we're getting up to speed as well. we remember we've got these casted characters and we've all been familiar with michael avenatti making an appearance at least in terms of testimony right now, we're learning that keith david said no longer presents terms daniels and the conversations calm was trying to use him to make sure he had more control over when she was speaking or not. >> you heard about eric trump wanting to enforce some aspects of arbitration or a tro, a temporary restraining order against her ability to speak about a variety of issues. >> and cohen is talking about this entirety now. so this is him again, the fulsome narrator. >> yeah. and michael avenatti is entrance into the scene.

this represents a significant escalation in what stormy daniels was doing with her story, how litigious she became. i how public she suddenly became to the two of them, making almost daily or not should not hurt, but he made almost daily tv peer appearances on her behalf. he eventually gets her to do 60 minutes i mean, once michael michael avenatti enters the chat, things related stormy daniels seriously escalate now that doesn't necessarily matter for this case. and the alleged criminal charges but he's going to speak to the chaotic season. we're about to enter in terms of trump and cohen and stormy dan, who remind people, paula, when it comes into the picture have the payments already been made to stormy daniel's but not the false? by business records component of it. >> so at this point, i believe he's entering the chat. i believe we are well past, so we're in 2018. so at this point, she's already received her hush money. they were previous attorney keith davidson, the falsified business records, all of that allegedly happened in 2017. so

here we're in 2018, and this escalation really has to do more with mike cohen and him losing control of the stormy daniels story as stormy daniels herself, when she takes on michael avenatti. so cohen's says he along with trump, eventually agreed not to enforce the nda against daniel. so that's really why this portion of testimony is it's not necessarily for the alleged criminal conduct, but i think this will likely help explain the sudden decline or the relationship between trump and michael cohen and the interests potentially, i mean, talking about 20:18, you've already your into a presidential administration patient, right? the idea we've heard testimony yesterday about michael cohen saying that trump was less interested once he became the president, perhaps with the campaign, but he always had reelection jim, on the brain. >> he did was every election on the brain and also he did have his wife on the brain during that time in 2018, we are told by people who are close to melania at that time he was mad, she was furious at him

when these reports came out. she felt embarrassed. she felt that he had put her in a position to be embarrassed, and he was president of the united states. this was a huge news story at the time. so this idea that yes, he thought that it would be fine post-election that might have just been for the actual actual votes being cast. but now he was in office on the story really took a life as his own. it's as paula said, everyone kind of losing control of the story. do we still have coby with us as well? >> on this point? because if we do, i want to bring them back in because you're always told and trials speculate with witnesses and credibility you gotta be wary of speaking in absolutes the fact that michael cohen suggested yesterday in court, but donald trump did not care at all really about maniere trump plays into the ability of the prosecution to make it keys because they have to show by law in new york, not a exact percentage, but that there was a substantial motivation that was the campaign.

>> how do you think the process? >> so and in the defense has to talk about how the jury should quantify this it's a very difficult question and it's a question that really is at the heart of the case. >> but what the prosecution has done repeatedly through a number of witnesses since most recently, michael cohn pointing out the donald trump's concern as he stated it, was always about the election. if melania came into the conversation she was an afterthought. so hope hicks testified that she had a clean up the magazine it's around the house, so melania didn't see the stormy daniels covers, but that's how far cry from a dusen testimony to say that donald trump was substantially concerned about his wife. >> and that's the problem donald trump has. >> there's only really one person who get up on the witness stand and say, the motivation for not doing what i'm accused of doing because donald trump denies that he ever authorized the hush money

payments. but the motivation for doing what i didn't do was to protect my wife he has got himself in this sort of bag of denying everything, having his lawyers attack everything that he can't really get on the stand and talk about his motivation for doing the things that he is going to swear. he didn't do. what do you do with that now? >> yeah. >> well, ron, i guess what as we're following what's happening right now, we're at the part of the testimony fani where the prosecution has got to confront the fact that you, michael cohen is somebody who has guilty convictions and please are talking about this point in time that one much of 2018 as trump's personal attorney, he continued to deny his involvement in the payment of funds from a daniels will are also now up to speed on that fbi raid. were cohen is saying, look at the people he saw tiny out in the hallway. he saw the badge open the door. he

was saying that the lowest hotel because of the had flooded in some respects, we are now getting into this point. they said that they identified themselves as the fbi asked him to step into the hallway. you can bet your bottom dollar that the journey begin to lean in now, hearing about this, and i'm gonna go back to jake on this point because jake, this is the part of the story that perhaps jurors had heard about in the past at the prosecution needs to be able to address and front and if they cannot take the sting out of things that make him seem less credible because of convictions before the defense gets up to cross they've got a problem. >> indeed, indeed, and let's talk about this with the panel, because right now the weird michael cohen is on the stand and he is beginning to describe when the bottom fell out for him. it is this morning, april 2018. he is staying at the lows regency hotel because his apartment is flooded. there's a knock on the door and he looks at the people as laura said, he sees a ton of people out in the hallway. it's an fbi raid

kaitlan collins inside the courtroom notes that trump has looked in the direction of the witness stand twice. as trump as michael cohen testifies about the fbi rate of his hotel room and office cohen is expressed explaining the search warrant, gave them the right to take my two cell phones. any electronic devices as well as records cohen confirms the cell phones receives this as the same that have been referenced in the trial, including the phone that contained the audio recording of cohen talking to trump, asked if he was frightened he said, yes, what was the basis for the fbi raid? >> so this is when the bottom falls out on the relationship. the fbi went to the judge and got permission, they got approval because they were able to show probable cause, meaning more likely than the michael cohen had engaged in various crimes, i think at the time they alleged bank fraud, wire fraud, potentially campaign section fraud, payment to stormy daniel's. i'm not sure if that's a basis for the search warrant it was at least a portion of it, right?

>> yeah. and the contents are and keep going. so they get in the door, they searched his home, his apartment is hotel has office and importantly, they pull out to cell phones and now we've seen evidence in this trial the prosecutor here's have taken from those cell phones. we've seen texts, we've seen phone call records, so part of this is michael cohen is setting the basis for the jury to understand where some of this evidence came from from his own cell phones at a time when he didn't know they were gonna be taken, right? he didn't know the fbi was coming. that's what number one. number two is. this is the turning point. this is when it all goes bad pretty soon in this narrative, donald trump and michael we'll come and have a public falling out and ultimately michael cohen that summer ends up pleading guilty to various federal crimes. so cohen spoke to trump after the raid. >> i received a phone call from the president. trump. it was in response to me leaving a message for him to call me. i wanted obviously him to know what was taking place. he said to me, don't worry, i'm the president of the united states. there's nothing here everything's gonna be okay. stay tough. you're going to be okay. cohen also says that he was frightened. >> lanny. what was the basis

for the fbi rate? what exactly was michael cohen's understanding about why they were going into his phones? >> so talk about a consciousness of guilt michael knew at that point he was up to his neck in doing these crimes four donald trump, by the way, this is the last time that he and donald trump spoke on that phone call. >> he recognized the raiders, maybe the beginning of his being targeted, and nobody else. and it turns out he was right. targeted by whom? >> well, he was insured because trump was saying stay hang in there. i am outraged. but then he started to distance himself and it didn't seem until jeffrey berman, the southern district us attorney, wrote a book where he said he was receiving pressure from washington on the cohen case that cohen started to add things up after the fact that maybe he was targeted in the weaponization that everyone talks about was really just michael cohen, not weisselberg, not anybody else. bill the issue that i have with

landry's recitation is when he says he had consciousness this of guilt because he knew these crimes had taken place at the behest of donald trump, whether or not that was part of his consciousness of guilt. >> it wasn't all of it. >> he certainly didn't not report 4 million and income tax to the tune of 1.387. >> in actual tax is lost at the behest of donald trump as elie said earlier, you certainly didn't lie. it is a bankruptcy proceeding at the behest of trump. so he had plenty of criminality going on. part of it may have been so just need only guilty to the tax crimes spread out over five years $470,000 per year, and then the annals of criminal prosecution, h&r block says 0.01% tax crimes are convicted. >> criminal system rather than

the bill's lauren, that's really heavy. lawyer the answer there? well, if i had a lawyer stayed his tax crime larger point is, i know people that somebody before 70 and ten years bills. >> larger point is that cohen may of known or suspected there were other things that he had done as well, but in any case, koan right now is in the courtroom. he's talking about how he felt reassured and he remained in the camp because donald trump had said that he was going to protect them. i'm the president and don't worry about it. he heard from other people in trump's circle. cohen says, your loved, don't worry, he's got your back. most powerful guy in the country, if not the world you're going to be okay. cohen is now being shown the trump tweets from 2018 about him, right? >> and this of course, as he is worried, am i still in the fall to my still in the fold and i'm gonna guess my question. i take your point about all of his crimes, not crimes. you're alleging maybe they were weaponizing the justice department against michael cohen? i think my question is, what was michael cohen's what is michael cohen's theory of why the president turned on

him? >> any case at this point in the narrative though cohen says he believed trump would communicating to him through these tweets, stay in the fold, stay loyal. i have you you're fine person, don't flip so let me read one of the tweets. i think we're going to prepare the new york times and third rate reporter named maggie haberman, known as the cricket age which wonky who i don't speak to and have nothing to do with are going out of their way to destroy michael cohen and his relationship with me in the hope that he will flip quote, unquote. and it goes on and i think there are additional at tweets being maggie haberman, by the way, a first-rate report let surprise. >> well, it's a reporter, maggie haberman. i certainly toxic to her a lot she's third rate trump does, right? i mean, he involved he involves himself with these people. i mean, he does the idea that he isn't are some of the other the other ones they use non-existent sources, not true. and a drunk, drugged up loser who hates michael, a fine person with a wonderful family michael is a businessman for his own account lawyer who i've always liked and respected most people will

flip if the government lets them out of trouble, even if it means lying or making up stories, sorry, i don't see michael doing that despite the horrible witch hunt and the dishonest media. so the idea that cohen says he believes trump is communicating to him, stay in the fold, stay loyal. i have. you are fined person don't flip it's pretty clearly stated right there. i don't see you, michael cohen flipping. i mean, it's pretty clearly so i can prompts attorney just handed him a post-it note during this questions about trump's trial, i can answer from my memory, so i first heard from michael and we talked in june the raid was in april. okay. i mean, april and june, trump started after these supportive tweets to make it clear that he was distancing himself is this unusual for donald trump? do you remember his support for bill barr? you remember what he's now saying about bill barr? he has a record through his lifetime of throwing people that he's used over, but some people that he saves. i mean, he's saved paul manafort, for example. >> he pardon them that's after you allowed paul manafort to be

prosecuted with his own attorney general. >> so i'm just saying that trump has history of distancing himself when they guide that's helped him through the years start to get into trouble. although according to cohen, trump was paying his legal fees still at this point, it's april 2018, and trump the trump organization has been paying michael cohen's legal fees as he testifies privately, but before congress on the trump russia affair, and he is being represented and paid for his representation is being paid for donald trump still pending cohen's legal fees. >> and in april 20 and all i can tell you is on the night it was many nights, but this was the night that he made up his mind his family and his children, and his friends were pressuring him to turn his life. and to tell the truth. it is when i said tim, the only way i can help you is if you say you're honest, not made up emotions and shames when trump shamed myself, right? and that was when they final break occurred on july the second through abc, excuse me,

mentioning another network that's okay. story broke that michael cohen was breaking with trump and telling the truth for his family and his country. and that was an agonizing two weeks they spent with him and his family and it was about his i was hired to turn his life around. >> you suggested like a weaponization of the justice department to go after michael cohen. i was trying to square that and i'm to this day, since the us attorney wrote his book, jeffrey berman, who described pressure from washington in fact, even trying to reverse the cohen's guilty plea to get rid of the documents that bound trump had directed crime. >> so what we'll dive more into that in a second, but courts taking a morning break cohen before the break, said that he took the tweet that trump sat that we read to you as a message that mr. trump did not want me to operate with a government, certainly not to provide information or flip the cohen audibly at sales as he leaves the courtroom prosecutors had to explain to the jury everything he did to protect mr. trump. court is in this quick break, as i

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prosecutors. i want to bring you stephanie wednesday the malkovsky is a former senior adviser to melania trump and author of the book melania in may, the rise and fall of my friendship with the first lady thank you so much for joining. so, you know, mike, michael cohen. well, you both spent years in the trump family orbit neither of you are in the family orbit currently having spoken with michael cohen recently, how is he handling? any of the pressure he might feel? >> yes. michael cohen, i've spoken often and almost daily, can pick and i think michael had to come to a realization that he has everyone is going to barrage him with the statements that we keep hearing over and over that he lied and lied and he lied. i think it's most important that people start now listening to michael because what he's been speaking about is corroborated by so many individuals that were in the trump orbit that we're close to family, as well as myself and we have allen weisselberg who everyone keeps discussing as well, who was a part of all of this? and he was a silent camp. he was involved

in the campaign as was michael silently. and so i think people need to just start looking at the facts of the case and stop focusing on what michael light about for so long. for donald michael cohen says that donald trump approved every part of the plan to pay hush money to stormy daniel's and to hide it do you see any scenario where something like this was carried out by michael cohen on his own to help donald trump. but without trump's explicit sign-off, is that possible at all? >> jake, you know, i wasn't there for any of those discussions. and i'm not a lawyer, so i can't say i can't guarantee that, but i do know donald and melania trump and nothing happens without their approval and with their full knowledge to the extent of everything that's going on i had to experience that myself and so i can relate to how michael fields and knowing just their extent of their involvement and knowing that

nothing would you wouldn't dare actually do anything without them knowing you worked for the former first lady, melania trump? >> knowing their relationship. how much do you think trump was worried about the stormy daniels story coming out? because he was worried about her reaction and how much do you think he was worried about the reaction of voters given this was october 2016, just weeks before the election i think people have to remember who milan your trump really is. there is no enigma. there is no mysteriousness. well on your really is who she has portrayed herself to be. there's a strength within her that is unlike any other individual i've ever met she does not care what others feel about her nor does she feel she ever had to really explain anything to the american people. >> and that is why she didn't move to dc in the beginning or when she was in the hospital?

donalds way of dealing with melania is something that i've spoken about very most recent whether it be a podcast or an interviews. and that is that i do believe it is a transactional marriage in so many ways that they both garnered so much out of their relationship. and by marrying donald millennia really did finally get to be the vogue cover model that she's always wanted to be. that's supermodel. and by marrying melania, donald was legitimised as trying to get away from that whole playboy mentality that, that everyone wanted to characterize him as donalds concern? yes. there's there is something between the two of them that others cannot deny that, that are close to them donalds main in my opinion, knowing millennia knowing that she really did fight for the locker room, talk, that it was something that she shared with me at lunch does? she. had canceled her interview with anderson cooper and that was

something that she was very nervous about when it first came out. and was the only thing she thought would put a the pick his election at any chance of being at risk. i do not believe donald first priority was melinda because she isn't going anywhere they are to one another. unlike anyone, is two, i think anyone else? >> you just referenced millennia talking to anderson cooper on 60 minutes. let's play a little bit of that. this is right after the access hollywood video broke. and obviously on that tape, he's talking about grabbing women by their genitals. and if you're a star, you get away with it and melania trump came to his defense these closing weeks of the election october 2016. let's run that clip he described it as locker room, talk to you. >> i mean, you just sort of alluded to that as well. is that what it is two you just locker room talk? >> yeah. >> it's kind of two teenage

boys actually, they should behave better, right it was 59, correct and sometimes i said i have two boys at home. i have my young son and i have my husband so but i know how some men talk and that's how i saw it, yes stephanie, a lot of a lot of voters heard that tape and thought that's donald trump bragging about committing sexual assault and you hear melania trump, there we're letting them off the hook. >> it's just silliness it is jake, but i have to tell you you know, and i think it's so important for the american people that do support the trump's when you hear melania trump say it, you almost want to believe it, right? the way she just says it's so lightly and casually but the reality is she really does mean it, right? >> per and to donald, it is about winning at all costs and

for them it really is. >> again, part of their talking points, right? it's about perception, it's about the perception of their marriage and who they are as individuals, about them being carrying are not carrying the reality is, it is whatever is best for them. >> and melania felt very strongly even when fired for he came out that melania was crying when you were talking about this earlier on your show, that she was interiors on election night. >> she made sure that i told the american people because i was not there. i was not there that evening, so i could not dispute it, but she wanted me to make sure that everyone knew that she was not crying and that she was strong and she was independent but that she and donald together were victorious. and that was something she kept pushing for, which i did make a statement for her about well, i guess i'm just a little confused. did she give the statement about the locker room talk about it? dismissing it, saying it's not important with donald trump said in terms of grabbing women by their genitals when you're a star get away with it. its center. >> did she did she defend it

because she actually believes it wasn't a big deal was him just being she really or is she she's saying that because she supports donald trump and supported their march to power i think it's a little bit of both, jake, i can't separate the two when it comes to melania because of how close i was to her, she genuinely believes that whatever it takes to get to that seat of power is what she was willing to put aside. >> and as i said to her orange, you concerned that everything that you've ever known about donald and herself would come out to the public and she said, i told him he better be ready and i thought to myself was so should you and there's a statement that michael cohen made in court yesterday where he said actually it was millennia that came up with the idea of saying this was just locker room talk. >> he said, quote, we needed does it put a spin on this? and the spin that he wanted to put on it was that this was locker room talk something that meloni had recommended or at least he told me that that's what

millennia had thought it was. so it wasn't just at least according to this. and again, take michael cohen's testimony. anyone out there watching with whatever grain of salt you want, but according to michael cohen when it wasn't melania trump backing donald trump's justification saying this is just locker room talk. it was actually a maloney who came up with the idea. >> again, jake, many times, i think if we pay closer attention to what happens on a day-to-day basis when they were in the white house. and afterwards, melania's it's very strategic and plays a very large role in what is going on with donald as far as the dog being in this room she she comes up with ways to make people accept the situations that are going on around her. >> and it does not surprise me that it would be xi who came up with it. >> she did not tell me that she just forcefully at that lunch explained to me that that is

all that it is. that is the way that her messaging was. and no big deal, right. for her. it was always it's no big deal. she as she has said to me, over and over, i know who i married. i'm to be nothing like as other two wives. and she accepted what that role was. >> stephanie last question for you before you go do you think that we will see melania trump accompany her husband to court? and why do you think we have not seen her do so yet? >> i don't think we're going to see melania trump accompanying titled to court melania is melania's home person in regards again, to a marriage that you want to consider to be something that most people are trying to still understand, don't i do not see her supporting him this way because she is not someone who i think that you can feel that humiliation without having to put yourself in front of the cameras milan, everything. melania's does is staged. so everything is articulated in a

way for her before or she does her interviews. so everything like i said, is very strategically planned. she is not going to put herself in a position where she's given anyone the opportunity to say anything negative about her. >> all right. stephanie winston woke off. thank you so much for your time and your insights and the court is reconvening michael cohen is back in the witness box. the judge has called for the jury to be brought back into the courtroom. donald trump is back in the courtroom kasie hunt the insights provided by a stephanie winston walk off former friend of melania trump certainly add to one of the subplots of this courtroom drama, which is what was his wife? thinking and the legal issue here, how much was he motivated by keeping the story of stormy daniels from her as opposed to keeping it from the voters? >> well, it doesn't seem to me that maybe nobody would want their wife to learn about something like this necessarily. right? but there also does seem to be she was

describing something of an arrangement where what goes on goes on. millennia kind of knows this is a situation where we are all playing our parts. >> but if it gets out and it's embarrassing, that's a problem, right not the first political couple. if that actually is there understanding, not the first political couple. well, to have that under i remain surprised necessarily the first kinds of resonance yes, but it does seem to be something sometimes people go, go along with that, so it, it is interesting that she described it that way and that melania was as invested in donald trump gaining this power. and i think that does help explain why she did that interview with anderson when she did it, the things that she said and again, it created this permission structure for voters in a very, very close election to say, well, this is what his wife thinks about this, i'm willing, you know, if she's okay with it. i'm okay with it, too. so that's an important piece of this. the first, but i

think that's all too often for a promotion structure to voters before a presidential election. >> also, i might observe, keep your point is well-taken. jake, but it also does suggest honestly that they are both potentially involved in this as an election focused idea, right yeah. and i think it's very, very difficult to pull up pull this apart. it's clearly about both of these things, but it is again, and i think i've said this before in our coverage. >> when you are covering a presidential election, this is my personal experience. >> there is nothing that overtakes your life. and when you work with it overtakes your life as a reporter. but one of the things i had to learn was how overtaken the principles were in that reality. so the candidates, the people working for the candidates, if you underestimate for that for a second, you are going to make a mistake. and so the idea that they could separate all of this from an election that was playing out in just days is simply implausible. so some color from inside the courtroom, from our esteemed colleague, kaitlan collins, eric trump is back in the

courtroom. >> his wife, lara trump, co-chair of the republican national committee. now, back in the courtroom, alina habba is attorney from less successful case, or at least a predecessor case back in the courtroom. they all took spots in the first row of the spectators the politicians who were there in the morning, the republican politicians there are two demonstrate support. speaker johnson, governor doug burgum congressman byron donalds and cory mills and entrepreneur of vivek ramaswamy have not returned. that has been a pattern for these trials. and the politicians coming to display support for donald trump or fealty if you were, if you will and that is they come in the morning and do not return after the morning break. susan hoffinger, the attorney for the prosecution is talking to michael cohen back in his testimony. are you familiar? she asks within attorney by the name of robert costello michael cohen says,

yes, i was introduced to robert costello by another lawyer jeffrey citrus, and i just note quickly before we dig into that mike johnson, the house speaker, is already fundraising off of his appearance, putting out this note saying, live from president trump's trial, president donald trump is on trial for one reason, one reason only to interfere with our elections can democrats are weaponizing the justice system? and he says, he's never seen a more egregious provision of our justice system than what he's seeing right now. but again, a fundraising appeal. >> it's interesting because to die democrats are also being tried right now, one across the street, senator bob menendez of new jersey. and henry cuellar said who it is and he's been indicted there have been indicted in texas. they probably would take issue with the idea that democrats are weaponizing the justice department of so that they're not benefiting from it maybe they need to get in on that. jamie ganim girl i'm not sure where this is going. >> this robert costello, jeffrey cetra, and things atlanta. do you know who who rhombic castello is? where is this line of questioning he was a giuliani friend and lawyer who reached out to michael at

the time that they were getting nervous about michael deciding to turn. >> and just in that time period, there were meetings with mr. costello and he was through written and verbal comments to michael's saying stan to the tent you know, who is going to take care of you. >> he told me that he was a criminal defense attorney, robert costa, who won that. he was incredibly close to rudy giuliani. >> this is at a point in 2018 were cohen says his emotional state was distraught, nervous, concerned as one would be if one's home is rated by the federal bureau of investigation. and i keep reminding everyone and that the family was churning heavily on michael. this is the time to make your break. >> your question. i'd like you say that and i just wonder had had this been building up for a decade? i mean, how did they not like donald trump cohen says they met in a conference room and the low is regency hotel where he was staying in the spring of 2018 because there was flooding in his home mean had this been building up or was it just enough like why exactly? was his family i mean, were they democrats like i

explained this to me. >> i'll have to stay general because i've been in family discussions, but let me just answer your question generally, over a period of time his family was becoming more and more unhappy as to what he was doing for mr. trump because of the seating is in the lying and the hush money payments and all that, everything he did, the fixer quality of it. >> i'd rather just fill in the banks and not say the words that i've heard, but i can answer your question. >> i'd rather i'd rather you didn't fill in money was getting increasingly upset with what michael was doing for donald trump over a period of time and a little more context about castile. >> he actually testified before the grand jury at the request of the prosecution, almost as an exculpatory witness, robert kraft, robert, cross-sell defense, though. yeah. yeah. for the defense. right. and was quite critical of michael cohen and quite critical of michael cohen's credibility. now again, this might be the prosecute we'll see in a few minutes it might be the prosecution's way of putting more of this uncomfortable or

character evidence about michael cohen onto the record. so that one's would do castellows says, according to cohen there are certain things you need to know. first, is that you have to obviously try to remember what might be in any of those boxes referring to what was taken in the fbi raid, bill, jake, no matter how you see this trial, whether you think it's a sham trial, where do you think it's prosecutor needs to be but it's gotta be electric in that courtroom today. it's gotta be shakespearean this is beth and mucked up. this is brutus and cesar. i mean, these guys had a relationship almost like a father, son relationship for years, and there's a thin line between love and hate. and that jury is going to pick up on all this they're going to have a hard time shaker or the godfather this meeting with bont costello michael cohen says that costello quote also said to me that this would be a great way to have a back channel communication to the president's. >> now at this point, i'm not even sure if michael cohen knows that he's not allowed to

talk to the president anymore. he is he is had his final conversation with donald trump, but he realizes that in retrospect, here he is being suggested by an attorney, an attorney who is an associate of rudy giuliani. i might be the best way for you to talk to donald trump from now on, cohen says he wasn't sure about costello at the time because of castellows close relationship with giuliani. this is the classic donald trump playbook when he tried hi to keep someone in the fold when trying to keep someone from flipping and we've seen it play out what says by the way, if it hadn't been drummed into your head, visually and interpretively, cohen says there was something really sketchy and wrong about castells so any michael cohen is now receiving this pressure on various fronts. >> donald trump is tweeting and making positive public statements. he's loyal, he's going to stay in the folt. there's the phone call that michael cohen testified about as soon as the raid happens, we're trump tells him, stay strong. they connect them with this lawyer who bob costello, who apparently is close with rudy giuliani and presumably sympathetic to donald trump. and so this is all the pressure coming on michael cohen from one side while his family and maybe his conscious is pushing

him the other way towards just making a clean split and saving himself. so cohen says he did not disclose everything that happened at that meeting because he believed that everything would get back to rudy giuliani emails between costello and cohen are being introduced into evidence. i understand we also have our first courtroom sketch because of course it is the year 18, 32, and we do not have television access in that new york courtroom. this looks like a christine cornell special there's donald trump prominently looking towards the jury in this interpretation, although in reality, he stares the other direction towards the judge. judge merchan. and then obviously attorney susan hoffinger and witness michael cohen. again, these are interpretive might from my vantage point, donald trump spent his time and from every description i've heard, looking straight ahead, which is not in the direction of the jury as as as depicted in this.

it is actually towards laughed like quanta towards that white screen behind judge thank you were in that courtroom recently. i was there last night eight weeks. they're half ago and these sketches are interpreted this, yes. from you. there's a huge visual block. when you're sitting at the defense table, we're facing the benches to say your left and you just can't say i would have to see if i really wanted to see like when weisselberg testified i got permission from judge merchan to sit closer to the jury because i just couldn't say, oh, there were some big cops in that room that service. all great guys all fantastic people. but not, but not transparent so in any case, emails between castellano cohen are being introduced into evidence right now. so this is a little part of the trial that i didn't know was coming today. this idea of what exactly is this rob castello fellow and what exactly was going on. cohen describes him

as sketchy and wrong. he doesn't know if he can trust him. he believed anything think he said to him would be spoken and told to rudy giuliani. but this is a at least initially costello is expressing some hey, what's going on, how you doing? can we help you like, where are you right now? this might this might be a good way that you can communicate with trump for me, it's adre sounds a little mob miami and thinks your sky is we might land, he will not break his client lawyer confidentiality for what's going on at this time. but i would describe this as the good fellows moment people are scared, people are lamy says yes, break it, but he says yes people get scared, people get paranoid. what do we know about michael cohen he's not the mastermind in this he he follows donald trump's instructions, but he knew he was in trouble. and when he says it was sketchy, he had an

instinct it wasn't going to say too much because he knew it was going to get back. yeah. costello rights to cohen on april 19, 2018. i'm sure you saw the news that rudy is joining the trump legal team, costello continues. i told you my relationship with rudy, which could be very, very useful w4 you, lara goats yeah. >> i want to revisit this because paula, i have you here at of course, christen for many people, they might be wondering, who is this costello figure? why is he relevant? you know, a great deal about why that only he's being mentioned right now. yeah. also why he's not going to be called to testify here, which is a huge question because he was the only witness that the defense put before the grand jury three right before trump was indicted in this case. now let's go back. they touched on some of this rob costello is a trump loyalist lawyer. he works with a trump associates. most notably, he worked for longtime representing rudy giuliani now he also as they've testified

for a time, represented michael cohen, they eventually had a falling out. now, when he was called here to testify before the grand jury, his role was to undermine the credibility of michael cohen. he testified to the grand jury that might we will call couldn't tell the truth and he held a gun to his head now, he also testified that michael cohen told him when he did represent him for a time that the whole hush money payment was his idea that was the purpose of bringing rob costello before the grand jury was to undercut his credibility and try to stave off an indictment. clearly, that wasn't successful. >> but in the intervening years since he was indicted, a lot of things have happened with rob castello. >> number one, hand rudy giuliani have also the parted ways because rudy giuliani owed him millions of dollars in legal fees that he did not pay. now, at one point, as kristen and i actually broke the story, they went down, rob costello and rudy giuliani went down to mar-a-lago and ask trump two for help to pay these legal bills. and trump acknowledged that he would help, but so far rob castula still casella still

has not been paid so when we got a sense of who the witnesses we're going to be in this case. it was quite surprising to me and others that costello would not be called. and the question is, okay, did they not need him for the case to undercut michael cohen's credibility or is there concern that there's now bad blood between the 1s star witness for the defense from the grand jury was meeting and now, when they need them here, because trump didn't pay those, rudy giuliani legal bills. so only in trump world can you you find a telenovela like this. but that explains who robert castello is. he is someone who could potentially maybe be helpful to undercut michael cohen's credibility. but they're not calling him and i spoke with about costello a couple weeks ago. he too was shocked that he hadn't been called. you'd had some brief contact with the defense team, but the fact that they're not using him at all when he was so central to their efforts before the grand jury it is notable, but it just speaks to the fallout in trump world, right? >> is there some notion that perhaps, and again, to reiterate, the the fence as in

donald trump's team is who they wanted to call for the grand jury to avoid an indictment backwards. so is there some indication that robert castello in their minds, did not provide helpful testimony to trump and therefore, they think there is bad blood for that reason. >> i think the moral, it's certainly possible, but as it's been explained to me, that knows trump's source has confirmed that. yes, we're worried there was bad blood because costello didn't get his money even after trump promised he would. it just appears that they don't want to bring him now, also note that at the time that casella was brought, joe taka peano was also on the defense steve, you're no longer here. now. this is being run by todd blanche. there's also might explain why rob castello is not is not being used in this case, as i've reported, they only about to called two witnesses, alan garten, maybe an election expert, unclear if their client's going to testify, but no, rob costello here, it's just it's fascinating because he's one of these reoccurring characters in trump-world. we're seeing him let me know consistently pop up over seven or eight years yet and just one thing to put on

your michael cohen now is kind of prefacing this in case it gets brought up in the defense, think he thought that costello was sketched this is intentional in terms of deriving of his potential witness who, as you say, they will, has a critical witness in terms of the defense. so right now, what they're having a back-and-forth on his castello, essentially, a being the orchestrator talking about this back channeling relationship between rudy giuliani, who is now with the president costello talking to him, was close to giuliani and michael cohen back-and-forth. michael cohen says it, let me know that i was still important to the team and to stay the course and that the president had my back of this email that was sent from rudy two costello and then shown to michael cohen. essentially think we all all think this is a great idea. you're in good hands, your quote, unquote, love this really speaks to the part of the story. >> this all is spitting into in part is trying to get at the idea of how their relationship change because we've already heard testimony today about an fbi raid. we heard yes. shai testimony about it was a family organization. he really, really

wanted the praise and validation from donald trump. he thought he was on top of the world when he got it. he was hoping to get that phone call after the raid because it concerned trump as well as phones had been confiscated. remember, on june 7, 2018, that castello email cohen, quote, to prove to you that really it called me and i did not call him. we photograph the pages from his iphone, apparently as you've got some tension here, that's brilliant about whose loyalties are where and who does the boss maybe actually want to help? it goes back to the same theme. >> yeah, trust issues clearly and costello is very much a trump tenth person, if you break with trump, you're going to break with costello, which is part of what happens between them, but it's a little more complicated than that. i mean, as you heard michael cohen cod costello sketchy. i've dealt with him for seven or eight years on the record. i extensively for many complicated stories and i'm like a lot of people in trump world. he is never once giving me false information. >> and yet he's not on the witness lists are in the

prosecution or the defense at this moment. i want to turn to anna commenced okay. she's the director of the criminal defense clinic at new york law school. and really interesting turn of events. and who is being mentioned, i mean, the jurors are probably writing down in their notebooks all the different people who have been introduced as very critical to the story or that a lot of time is being we spent on and then going to compare and contrast who they've actually heard from. one of the things that's really interesting here is we're hearing a lot about this person castello now. but up to this point, we've heard a lot about allen weisselberg. and the only way we've been able to really get his information in is through subordinates or cohen are now his handwriting weisselberg's handwriting that had $420,000, the amount of reimbursement to cohen divided by 12 $35,000. the exact number, frankly, the personal checks to michael cohen does does that is that able to be disputed by the defense because weisselberg is not there and the jury's already we've seen an evidence what this is a

really interesting issue and what there's a couple of things that we have to think about here, right? >> so the first thing is we've, we've seen this a little bit outside of the presence of the jury right there in front of the jury. they've heard this name over and over and over again, but they've yet to actually hear from this individual, right? and based on what we know, he may never be called, the prosecutor has to think about what what do i want to do with that? and so we've seen outside the presence of the jury that the prosecutor the prosecution has asked the judge to be able to present some information about why he's not there, why he's not testifying that at this point has been overruled by the judge. the judge isn't allowing that in, and the judge has basically said to the parties, i want you to go back and do some more digging on this before i rule that i'm going to allow anything other than maybe asking this this person to come and testify. i think the issue for both sides is as we know, he is someone who's playing a prominent role, but without actually

being there. and one of the things that i don't really think has been discussed very much is what open-end cannot call a witness who they think is going to perjure themselves and so therefore, if the prosecution represents to the judge the reason that we're not calling this person is because we believe they're going to perjure themselves. >> i'm not sure that the judge can push back on that, and ironically, i think that might be the very same thing. >> hey that trump's attorneys would say and of course, the idea that he might come and just take the plead the fifth in a series of different questions. >> not totally help folt the prosecution and not particularly able to be brought here, but there's still the idea of his absence and while we you and i are having this conversation, the jury is now hearing i only about this because salah figure we've heard about our now, rudy giuliani leon is making an appearance in the documentation in discussion about how to stay

in the fold, how to demonstrate that you, in fact are going to get the light of trump shined on you if you're in close proximity for the jurors in this case, i mean, we're talking about new yorkers. >> they may not be familiar with an allen weisselberg. they may not be familiar with the whole picks or mr. mcconney or even maybe a michael cohen in full. but they certainly know rudy giuliani what's the impact of even having him be discussed in this way well, i think one of the biggest issues here and this equally applies for the prosecution and the defense is that it is head-spinning. the number. i mean, you just started naming people right? there are so many characters to the story to keep we track of. >> and so how are we expecting the jurors to keep track of that? >> and one of the jobs of a litigate or right of a trial attorney is to make sure that your story is understandable to the jury, that they can keep track of who all these players

are. so yes, they may very well know who rudy giuliani is outside of the courtroom. but what is his role here? how are the prosecutors helping fit this into the narrative? and what's the defense going to do with that? and so part of this is just what are we doing to assist these jurors to actually make a decision at the end of the de and part of what my concern is for both sides is really thinking thanks how are you going to help the jurors harness all of this information at the end of the day so that they come out on the side that you're hoping they come out on an important point and cohen's testifying right now, talking about all the back-channels. >> he's climbing the back channel i'll communications sort of i spy ash and ladies, i have kristen and polo with me here. i mean, it is a real issue. just thinking about all of the collective knowledge of two of you have from the years of diligent coverage of the different figures in this case, the jury's learning curve is very steep and again, they're

not trying to figure out which may be an easier credibility issue. was there a sexual encounter or not? that's not the trial. the trial is whether 34 different documents were falsified invoices, checks, and beyond. this is a lot for them to bite off. >> it is obviously they know the big players here. everyone knows who the former president is, likely knows who michael cohen is. but if you sit in this trial and this jury is so incredibly attentive, you've been in the core, you know, i mean, they are watching every document every witness you really would not showing their hand about how they feel about anything. exactly. but on some level, they've got to say wow, this is a shady group of people, right? i mean, that is the one thing i think they've proven beyond under reasonable doubt. now, cohen has testified that cryptic messaging about castellows quote, friend and his friends client encourages cohen to get a message, something to do with rudy giuliani cohen says that by his recollection, the email reference, the potential of pre pardons here. they're floating the idea from michael cohen that even if he was to get in legal trouble, that there would be a pardon as long as he is as

long as they here he's loyal as of course, the paul manafort plan, right? play the long game. here, stay loyal and you can get a pardon. and actually there was a tweet at one point, right? >> that trump mentioned about paul manafort juxtaposing the two men side-by-side manafort as having been convicted versus michael cohen as pleading guilty, using that in a way to be disparaging. >> yeah. exactly. i'm not sure who ended up on the better end of that deal. both men went to prison now for several years though, paul manafort does seem to be living his best life right back in the fold at mar-a-lago. >> but again, i think that for the jury to go through the story and learn about all these characters in this noon the way these are all things that dell take into consideration, but i reiterate we still haven't gotten to the real nesc part of the michael cohen story. >> we have not gotten to his criminal convictions or his turning on the defendant that could potentially pick the rest of the day? no. kristen, that's an important point to think about where we are because some people have been thinking, well, hold on. we heard all day yesterday and the jury that this was the

right-hand man of the president. he liked to say that he had ivanka is old office. he would go hey, boss, you got in many is able to talk to them. we heard a recording the jury did as well about him having this conversation that he says he tried to use to placate david pecker. but now you're seeing a true falling out and now he's having to use proxies to try to get to donald trump give, me the circumstances this point in terms of why it had soured so much falling that fbi raid. >> well, there's a lot of uncertainty as to what exactly was uncovered in that i'd fbi raid at the time, you clearly with lawyers were telling donald trump not to be contacting michael cohen directly, but instead they were using different layers of lawyers do quote unquote, communicates. so right now it's a cohen says there was concern that i was going to go to another lawyer other than costello and retain another lawyer to represent me. in this matter. basically, the concern of course, coming from donald trump's world because they want to keep costello at this point, castello is communicating with rudy giuliani, who is communicating them with a president or at

least i would is saying that is what was being told to him. they wanted to keep costello. there's that they had some sort of insight into what exactly was going on. take a step back though, and this is obviously one of the several matters that trump is dealing with we know that in other cases in florida, for example, there is a conversation about who's paying the legal fees and retaining the council on behalf of co-defendants. >> we've heard earlier in the testimony in this trial about who picks retaining her own counsel, rhona graff, having her counsel paid for by the trump team as well this is an important part. i think maybe for the prosecution and tried to get out to suggest we're loyalties lie. >> well, exactly envision. remember, i mean, paying for for people's attorneys is something that donald trump does routinely, particularly people who have been impacted, cases that involve them. you still paying for the stew co-defendants in florida to be kind or let's always been the biggest question, right? i mean, obviously we cannot answer what exactly his motivation is to pay those legal bills. there's a lot of speculation out there as to why

exactly faculty he would do that, particularly a man who doesn't like spending money at all would shell out millions of dollars for his own associates and their legal fees. but that is what we're seeing here, is this it's kinda trying to keep cohen in the fold, particularly when cohen used the word concern, there was concern i would go to another attorney and i want to make a note christian touches on something really there are some folks in trump's orbit, even one or two sitting in the courtroom today and everyone around trump will ask, why on earth do you keep that person close? you know, you know that that's not a good idea and i've been told that he learned a lesson from what happened with michael cohen, and there are some people that are four more dangerous, right? if you let them go, they can be so useful to prosecutors, so potentially dangerous that just do whatever you can to keep them close. so i think that's an important lesson that i'm told trump learned after the fallout, which is coming in this testimony from michael cohen, this is an important point i want to go back to and i kamensky if we have her still

on this because the way the prosecution is trying, again, this is the prosecution eliciting this testimony. this the prosecution trying to front and have this staying taken out of the potential cross-examination by i don't know if people have or not but thinking about the ways in which you approach this. i mean later please you look at, i think we have are still but just thinking about how this all gets unpacked i mean, you've got cohen talking about these issues. you have whether it's not even new is now just noon he is not yet to be cross-examined. there is not trial tomorrow. there is not trial on friday. we already know because there's behrens has been graduation and beyond. >> if they as you have reported, they intend to cross-examine him for at least as long as the direct examination patient has been he is up for a very long and winding uphill road yeah. and if he doesn't if they don't start cross-examination until later today, likely go through

thursday and then the real danger from michael cohen is that lawyers will have three full days to prepare additional questions to get feedback from the client. >> we saw with stormy daniels when they came back to do the rest of their cross-examination after they had a wednesday. i mean, they went for as long if not longer than they did in the first round. so the way the timing plays out here, really good. we detrimental from michael cohen in terms of what he's going to face on the witness stand, but we are in the homestretch once they wrapped michael cohen defense case expected to be brief, then of course, they'll have to likely have some arguments over the specific instructions for the jury. they'll do closing arguments instruct the jury at the way this is going right now. i don't see the jury getting this before memorial day, but like me be that week when the jury gets the case by the way, just have the campaign trail. he has been complaining about having to be taken off the campaign trail obviously you know, people are coming to him right now, meeting him where he is as campaign surrogates and proxies is that how he sees the role of them? i

wonder how it's gonna go forward, jake, i want to go back to you because again, it's not just the jurors who were in that courtroom today. it's also sitting members of congress who are prepared to perhaps do is political bidding that's right, and right now, cohen is talking to the prosecuting attorney about this character mr. costello, who is an associate of rudy giuliani almost an emissary, sent to cohen to try to make sure in cohen's telling of the story that cohen stays on the program, stays with the team cohen says, he never told costello about trump's involvement in the american media incorporated the tabloid empire payment to mcdougal or cohen's own payment to daniels? >> i didn't trust him. cohen says meaning bob costello and i was still remaining loyal to mr. trump trump and cohen is going to great lengths to describe this in his view, pressure campaign costello

reaching out to him saying since you jumped off the phone rather abruptly, i did not get a chance to tell you that my friend, which is rudy giuliani, presumably billy, has communicated to me that he's meeting with his clients this evening. that would be donald trump and he added that if there's anything you want it to convey, you should tell me and my friend rudy giuliani will bring it up for discussion this evening hoffinger asks cohen why castula didn't just say giuliani and trump and sort of to be covert, cohen says it's all back channel. i spy ash. >> the lengthy email using cryptic messages about collins, stella's friend and his friends client continues to encourage cohen in this retelling to get a message to trump through rudy giuliani by his recollection, the email reference the potential of pre pardons. >> i believe we've please remember if you want or need to communicate something, please let me know. seems to both jeff and i perhaps we have been played here. let me know what you want to do. castellows

email reads, cohen says that meant to communicate to giuliani and ultimately depressant trauma at some point during those months cohen see edited with his family this is. a presumably laney davis what you talking about. this is 2018. he's being pressured through this emissary of an emissary please stay loyal to mr. trump and then he talks to his family what happens in family meeting? >> so again, i'm not going to talk about what the family is saying, except that i know that there was increasing unhappiness and that factor into miklus decision to make his break. >> let me interrupt. so cohen says, my family, i'll said to me why are you holding onto this loyalty? what are you doing? we're supposed to be your first loyalty that releases me a little bit more j. but cohen says his family told them that it was about time to listen to them. >> i can tell you it was very forceful and more it seems to be michael's while i'm added a

bad costello, i was asked to come back to new york after michael finished his testimony in case costello needed rebuttal. so i sat in the holding room next to the grand jury, wild costello, who volunteered to come in to testify as to come in to testify unusual according to the prosecutors they of course said yes. after his testimony, the grand jury said, we don't need rebuttal. >> so cohen says, i made a decision i was told i am not allowed to say what the grand jury said because i don't know. >> my impression was that the grand jury did not want to hear from mike. >> okay. so michael cohen says i made a decision based again, and on the conversation i had with my family that i would not lie for president trump anymore. so this is a meeting with his, his wife, his daughter, and his son that's what he has, right. >> that was what i was referring to. yeah. yeah. so he had the six he's no longer going to live for donald trump. susan hoffinger, the prosecuting attorney, asks if michael cohen pleaded guilty to

influence it's trump's election. todd blanche objects, are at a sidebar well, i i i knew an objection was coming to that question for that reason we were talking about this a little bit in the break. >> this idea of why did you commit the crimes you did. well, the obvious sentence that michael cohen would make as though i was doing this for the president of the united states now that bleeds into possibly prejudicial testimony about the president so we'll see what they do with the judge. let's it in now to be clear, the jury's already heard it. you can't un-ring that bell remains to be seen. so trump, who did not react as cohen was describing how he would no longer remain loyal is now chatting with his attorney, emil bove, while the other lawyers or at this sidebar, let's bring in former nixon white house counsel john dean. >> good to see you. mr. de, michael cohen testifying about his decision to turn on donald trump. this came after pressure from his own family to put them over trump does this remind you in any way of when you made your decision to no longer protect nixon my my decision

was somewhat extended period of time where i worked within the white house's the tape show crimes, but i knew we were in trouble for i was unpersuasive. >> and then finally, at one point they decided what a util make a good scapegoat and i didn't think it was a role that i wanted to play and so i shot across their bow by going to the washington post, new york times what, whole than what have you and publicly said they had picked the wrong person to be escaped goat. so i was in open battle, unlike michel, i might add j. that one of the tough things for a witness, which i spent a lot of time on the witness stand, are sidebars you're sitting there in limbo, not quite sure how you go after the sidebar. are you and you can't hear the sidebar so they're very disruptive to the flow of

one's testimony. >> you said that the prosecution's case has been, quote, very powerful. have you heard anything today from michael cohen that firmly establishes that? your view donald trump committed a crime or a bedded or enable the crime well, i thought the crime had been pretty clearly established before michael cohen even walked in to give his testimony. >> he's fairly in the gaps. he is closed a couple of gaps that inferences could have been easily drawn by a jury. that the only person that could be involved would be donald trump and criminal activity. so he's been a strong witness and it'll be interesting to see how they can smear him and mess them up in the eyes of the jury, in cross-examination. >> well, that certainly coming. right. and one of the big questions of course is his credibility. he has admitted lying even today, he's talked about lying lying to the fec in

a letter, lying to the wall street journal has has everything he has said so far been corroborated by documents and witnesses with a more credible history. is that is that something you see that the prosecution is done effectively laid out a paper trail to backup everything he said the framework of everything he said has certainly been established with external information or prior testimony of others. so he's filling in gaps and is testimony is very logically fits and closes gaps of information for the jury so i i have and read this transcript yet i've been reading the transcript all the way along. and it's a very powerful case, jake it's i don't think that it's going to make or break on michael cohen's testimony, although i think there are some gaps and if there's a hung juror the other jurors might not be able to pressure if they somehow are upset with michael

cohen. i think they're going for a hung jury. i don't think they ever could envision getting a not guilty. >> so michael cohen was just asked why he paid the money to stormy daniels and he said, quote, to ensure that the story would not come out, would not affect mr. trump's chances of becoming president the united states, susan hoffinger asks cohen to confirm at who's direction and on whose behalf he paid daniel's and cohen says on behalf of mr. trump, hopkin's, you're asked whether cohen would have paid the money if not for the election? no, ma'am cohen says, your your take on that testimony? which was just delivered in court just more on the flow of completing the story for the jury. >> and i think with clear answers at laney davis wants to ask you a question uh, you were attack not only for being a liar publicly, you were attacked by nixon's men as being part of the crime, part

of the obstruction. >> and yet when you testified, despite all my colleagues reminding everyone about michael cohen's being a liar, you suffered that and yet, what is your reaction to how you coped with being accused of the crimes that you are accused of. and yet you were a principal witness resulting in convictions. what how did you react to that well i knew i hadn't lied. >> i had not pled any lies. i had no perjury charges. they were just trying to say i couldn't remember things and trying to undercut my rather massive testimony i had testified before the senate given a 60,000 words statement that they requested. i read had they told me in advance i was going to have to read this it would not have been 60,000 words. so that that was what they picked apart during the trial, was to try to get some

differences, but i lonnie, i had not written any books. i'd not made any public statements. i took a very different course than michael and i think he's going to have to deal with all of the filler. he's added since his house testimony and other under oath testimony. and that's why he are beyond the stand a long time. unwinding that. yeah. i don't recall you doing a podcast back in 1973 nor do i recall a t-shirt. you wearing a t-shirt with an image of richard nixon behind bars in an orange jumpsuit. maybe i'm, maybe i'm mistaken. maybe you did do that. i don't i don't recall. it's always good to have you on. thank you for your insights is a huge distinction. make between mr. dean and mr. cohen while they both cooperated with the authorities if you take out watergate and take out nixon, mr. dean has no criminality. if you take out trump and trump world, colin still has to answer for the lives of the irs, the lives of the bankruptcy. there's a lot

to work with and the taxi that taxicab medallion taxicab medallion? which is originally the southern district of new york, was first referred the case of michael cohen. according to jeff berman's book, because of the taxi medallion case, which was outside of robert mueller's purview. he referred it to them, but let us bring it back to what's going on in court right now because the karen mcdougal matter has come just to refresh your memories. karen mcdougal, 1998 playboy playmate of the year, had alleges that she had a longer term relationship with mr. trump that extended about ten or 11 months between 2006 and 2007, right after the stormy daniels episode allegedly took place, and there was also a hush money payment made to her for this one paid by david pecker's tabloid, empire american media incorporated an exchange, quote, unquote for a column she was going to write for some fitness magazine, ghostwrite. it never was written. the payment was made. and david pecker thought he was going to be paid back by donald trump,

but was not and so what's going on right now? cohen is being asked about the payments. am i made to karen mcdougal, which was also part of cohen's 2018 guilty plea susan officer says, why did you work with a mind to pay off karen mcdougal cohen says, in order to ensure that the possibility of mr. trump's succeeding in the election cohen said he worked on the deal, quote at the direction of donald j. trump. and quote for the benefit of donald j. trump judge marsha and tells the jurors mr. cohen's plea from 2018 is not evidence of the defendant's guilt, and you may not consider it in determining whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty of the the charged crimes. michael cohen goes on to say he also pleaded guilty to tax charges and making false statements to and financial institution that were unrelated to trump. >> there you go. bill brandon, he's acknowledging what you've brought up several times today asked what the de was like. cohen said, worst day of my life. this is the day of the plea deal. cohen is now reading trump's tweets from august 20 seconds 2018, the day after he

pleaded guilty, hoffinger says, who did you understand these tweets to be addressed two and cohen says to me, here is the tweet if anyone is looking for a good lawyer the president of the united states rights, august 22, 2018. i would strongly suggest that you don't retain the service this is michael cohen. cohen says the tweets caused a lot of axed, a lot of anxiety. laney davis, you were representing him at the time. what what was what was the impact of those tweets? a cohen said the tweets communicated certainly displeasure that i no longer i guess was important to the fold so i just remember if fear pure a bad is safety fear about his family and fear a turning against trump and the consequences had he did he think that he had flipped when he did the plea arrangement because the plea arrangement the plea deal he admits to helping to arrange payoffs to

karen mcdougal and stormy daniel's at the behest of mr. trump, who is named in who is not named, but is regarded as he's individual one, i think are individually visual a in the indictment so he did did he perceive oh, i have to flip on him. >> this is the only thing i can do know by then. it was really on a friday night, he was told that if he didn't plead guilty to all these charges, including the text charges that his wife would be indicted on monday morning and for the taxi fragment of taxi medallion fraud for something relating to the tax charges? yeah, some tax charges between friday night and monday morning. he felt he had no choice and a very experienced former southern district prosecutor said publicly that his plea of guilty he was done under coercive circumstances, much as bill refers to it, that's what his lawyers thought. >> well, wait a minute, atlanta, you think about that for a minute. if the whole thing here is trump made me do it. i live for trump. i pled guilty and flipped because i

felt be able to defer trump what you just said is totally unrelated to trump and trump world. he lied on this taxes so i assume what was married filing jointly, be exposed his wife. his wife was going to be locked up because of his criminality and thank god, he did the arolla thing and said, i'll take the hip, but nothing to do with what we're talking about here. >> in fairness, that's all i said is just the wife charges relating to taxes. you're just on the tax he did not want to risk that between friday and monday he made the decision and his own lawyer explained why. >> so cohen confirmed on november colon confirms that on november 29, 2018, he also pleaded guilty to one count of making false statements to congress on trump's behalf in 2017. this was behind closed doors first about the trump tower, moscow project. he, michael cohen admitted that he lied about the number of conversations he had with trump. and when those conversations stopped, i believe i believe he said it was january 2016 when in fact,

the conversations would continue through june 2016 jurors are watching cowen inside, as he explains, he was sentenced to 36 months in prison and find the context here we should remember this was a wild de of news because it was literally within the hour. both michael cohen plea and the paul manafort guilty verdicts happened which was just an insanely it was an insane news de and very, very bizarre. i have very vivid memories of those happening at the same time, cohen says before he reported to prison on may 6, 2019, he testified before congress in february 2019, and this is of course, his appearance in congress he goes forward and says a whole bunch of things that have quite frankly led us to where we are today. i think congresswoman and alexander ocasio-cortez has asked some questions it had to do with inflating assets that had to do with the new york

attorney general charges and fine of half $1 billion or whatever it is. and then other questions that happened during that hearing that led us to where we are today. yeah. >> this is important moment for the prosecution. they're fronting michael cohen's prior guilty pleas convictions, which you have to do, you have to get them out there, although the tone when they bring enough it's probably gonna be more like bill, so a little different. >> yeah, this is a good example of what we're going to say sadly, the back-and-forth. but i mean, the back-and-forth will be this. the prosecution will say he's owned up, he's been held accountable. he's done his time now. he's come clean. the response from the defense. >> here drop lanny, like are cohen says the testimony came after the chair of the house oversight committee reached out to lainey davis, who was assisting me in legal strategy. that who who is the chairman of the house is had been the late elijah coming the late low-lying should coming. so yes, we miss him. he was he was a good guy, but he reached out to you and tried to arrange his testimony and it took some persuading for michael to take the chance. why he was facing jim jordan. mark meadows

republicans with a sign on the wall that we expected in which happened, liar, liar, pants on fire on national television under oath as a lawyer, i had to warn them all of the risks and it took them yeah. >> it's gonna be rough. cohen says he had to pay back taxes, that he had evaded her. his guilty plea. he says he paid the outstanding taxes he owed more than 1.3 million before its own sentencing. he also paid two $50,000 fine. >> yeah. just to remind people what exactly michael cohen pled guilty to, there's really four separate sets of crimes, federal court. one was campaign finance for the payments to stormy daniels and karen mcdougal two was his false testimony to congress, not the incident land he's talking about earlier behind closed doors, about the timing of the trump moscow era. >> the trump tower moscow project. and when he stopped talking to trump about it and how many conversations you'd have exactly because michael has said because donald trump was trying to minimize his involvement and russia, russia, russia exact 2000 will be set after the presidency, right? >> michael cohen also pled guilty to tax fraud relating to about 4 million of tack of

income, which translates to one point, something million dollars of income, and then to bank fraud relating to the taxi medallion case. he ultimately ends up getting sentenced to three years. he serves about one and one year and a little bit of spare change, largely because he got released early because of the covid scares they were trying to reduce the inmate population the argument from prosecutors will be hizon. he's taken accountability. he's literally done what he's saying, right now. i apologize to congress. i apologize to the country. i apologize to my family and he's nodding his head slightly he's also just talking about the repayments he made to the government his his testimony is owning up to the payments to the two women cohen says he apologize to the american public quote for lying to them for acting in a way that suppressed information that the citizenry had a right to know in order to make a determination on the individual who is seeking the highest office in the land asked what it was like testifying publicly, cohen says horrible,

and that's how he felt. lamy davis yes. >> and i sat behind him in was worried about him getting angry, but i just want to share one other thing. not asking for sympathy from some of the justifiable critics here. when i had to make the decision to represent my michael end to take them public. i needed to believe he was ready to own what he did because i had seen the michael cohen for ten years that i didn't like very much attacking everyone defending donald trump and so over a period of time and it was elijah cummings that ultimately helped guide that he was believable in his contrition. it took a former minister in a black church elijah cummings to say when a center s for redemption i have to be sure this feels it and so it was a process for me as well as you're seeing michael recount and cohen says he also met several times with special counsel, robert mueller's

office before reporting to prison, he first met with a special counsel's office in 2018 before he pleaded guilty. multi laura coates, a of golden oldies going back here, the robert mueller investigation and russia, russia, russia, laura oh, absolutely. >> and he also went on to say that he was not truthful to the special counsel, quote because i was still holding on for loyalty to president trump, a back with paula and kristen. this is so significant because the way they were going to front the issues about his guilty convictions his pleas was gonna be so important what they tried to humanize them would he take ownership and accountability? how would they fronted? >> would it be in a way that was sympathetic to the jurors? >> suggests, hey, this is the end of the rope, the end of the line. he had been cast aside. he was the pariah and now he's apologized to his family and the american public. and that point want to go back to he said that he was pleading not guilty at the pleading guilty, he says he then gave truthful

testimony in subsequently with martyrs team. but here's a line. i want to go back to him. he said apologize, the american public quote for lying to them. paula for acting in a way that suppressed information that the citizenry had a right to know in order to make a determination on the individual who's thinking the highest in the land that's a way of getting to the motive as to why they tried to hide the payment. >> he has a lot to explain because of course they had to get out in front other criminal leaves for lying, but we've learned about a lot of other allies to write the lies he told about stormy daniels, the lies that he told to go to the fec omission in terms of what he shared with his wife now, lying to the special counsel, eventually telling them the truth. i think what the jury has to reconcile is if you'll lie to congress, if you'll lie to the american people previously, if you'll lie to the irs why should i believe right now that you're not lying to me? it's not a one-off. it's not one or two things. it is a pattern of

being dishonest and now prosecutors need to convince the jury how he has turned it around while simultaneously launching unrelenting attacks on the defendant, i think right now this is going to do the most challenging thing for prosecutors is to bring this home and account for all the other problems. >> it's important point and of course it could very well be that they're saying, look, i'm done lying, that's why he's now gone on the offense against trump. how the jury interprets it, is a good question. i want to talk both sides is arguing the prosecution and of course, the fans and back with me are on kaminski. she's director of criminal defense clinic at new york law school, also adam kaufman's here. form. was that because and da manhattan district attorney's office really important. adelie, bring you in here because i do wonder. >> do you find it problematic that they are going through the things that had to food they head to get to these issues of his honesty or dishonesty how were they doing at presenting and framing this to the jury

thanks, mary to get the feel of the courtroom when you're not in there. and this really is i mean, you can read the record and the record says whatever the words are that are being uttered from the witness stand, but a record doesn't show eye contact. it doesn't show fidgeting, it doesn't show body language. it doesn't show how the jurors are reacting to this. all of that is happening within the courtroom jurors i've found in some cases jurors buy into believe in a tale of redemption that someone who did these wrongs in the past that lied and lied and lied again. but who pled guilty, owned up to his crimes. and paid whatever the penalty was that jurors will will

respect that and see that as are sort of redemption tale. and they may credit that testimony so i think this could go anyway across point excuse me i hear you. >> i want to get back to one point. i might keep interrupting your second because i want to give the audience a chance to know what's on this greene i come right back to your point. we're seeing alina habba handed a note from the gallery to another lawyer who then gave it to necklace defense counsel who then passed it to beauvais, who we then handle the note to blanche. and so you mentioned what the jury is looking at and how they are receiving information. they also are likely seeing these, this chain of events that are going on and they are trying to get the word for you to the person, of course, is going a cross examine michael cohen, who is todd blanche, go ahead no. >> i mean i mean that you the jury, if you've got a jury consultant there they're focused exclusively on the jury and there may be one i'm sure who reacted in a visible way to something that was said on the stand and you want to capture

that and take note of it and try to sort of capitalize on whatever the fifth year the defense on whatever that juror are, those jurors reacted to because as we've said, you only need one to hang to hang a jury and important point and i continued, unfortunately, have to trap to both of you and i want to come to you on this because as are watching all of this the full before the jury, we knew they had to take the sting out of the fact that this is somebody who they don't want here. >> the defense. they don't want the jurists to believe you also hoffinger, who was the prosecutor, direct examination, michael cohen, asking cohen about being sent back to prison after he was not happy with the term terms of his monitoring. so they're going through methodically all of this for many people, and they may have thought they're going to have to address the bias and he doesn't like trump. remember necklace at one point in cross them, they tornado said, we get this straight. you hate donald trump. that's not the full story here. going through the

why the iterations, the change in his stance ending with trump is part of the story. they're trying to weave yeah. >> i mean, what struck me is the order in which the prosecution has decided to deal with cohen story, and that's really important. one of the things that we do as trial lawyers is we don't just think about what witnesses are we going to call, what evidence do we want to introduce? but once we decide that there's witness, we want to call. we have to think about how do we want that witness to tell their story in a way that's going to be most believable, most credible to the jury and you've been talking about it all morning cohen has a lot of issues, right? he's got a lot of credibility issues and i think what's really interesting is they excuse me, we're also honoring right now, excuse me. and we're also hearing for a second just talking about the idea of what the jury is hearing. their

hearing, michael cohen was sent back to solitary confinement now, this might be a very important moment in terms of not just trying to humanize, but in particular to get across to the jury what his experience was in prison, what is experience was in jail, and also he's explaining that in addition to talking the special counsel's office he talked to all the local prosecutors, the da's office for the first time while he was still incarcerated. the jury is hearing remember that the da's office and is actually bringing the case, albeit a different head of that office now and alvin bragg no longer cy vance, how might that be playing i'll also excuse me. >> he also has a grand jury in this case and jury is hearing that he also got i didn't unity excuse me. go ahead right. >> i mean, it's interesting to me because i will also say, as we think about how's the jury proceeding this? >> hi, i'm also wondering why some of this is actually relevant relevant to him relevant to his credibility. >> i mean, you have to wonder why does it matter for this

case having to do with falsifying business records that he went to solitary confinement obviously it's understandable. all of the things right. is guilty plea his sentence. those are all relevant to his credibility, but it's interesting some of the facts at the prosecutor's bringing out. and based on what we're hearing, i'm of course not there right now to see, but it appears to be that there's not any objections to some of this, so it's interesting to me how the defense has decided to let some of this story come out of that's really been interesting to me as well. and when you talk about the jury's perception one thing that i think has been really interesting about the defenses approach to cohen's testimony so far as they have had very few objections. >> i think the idea there is to show the jury there is nothing about this guy that we are looking to hide from you. >> we want you to hear everything he has to say because all of it is incredible. it's not believable. and we'll have arch fans, but you can go ahead and

listen to his story right now adam, i want to bring you back in here because this method of activity, first of all, there has been some series of objections that were raised where at a bit of a disadvantage in terms of the extent to which, but they are some of them where it had been sustained or overruled by the judge. >> there's a conversation happening right now as we are for conversing atom, where he's talking about how he first met with the da's office. he wanted a letter sent that he had been cooperative and to give him some advantage in being able well, to be released or the term to his conditions changed, the da's office said that they would provide a letter of cooperation, provided that sdny, the federal prosecutors agreed to as watch as much they chose not to, again, in new york, testifying in front of the grand jury does confer automatic immunity, but he does say that cohen said that seeking a letter did not impact him telling the truth the da's office or during his testimony to the grand jury. but the jury is hearing all of this right now, what do you think is the motivation for the

prosecution to bring all of this up? is it to try to suggest that they were not simply going to do anything and everything to curry favor with michael cohen sure. >> that there's a few reasons why they need to do that. one is on the one hand prosecutors, we've talked about bring up all the negative about about the bad things about someone but they also want to bring out any benefit that they conferred are discussed, conferring to the defendants, so they don't want it to come out on cross-examination that they were willing to send this letter to help out cohen, then it looks like they're hiding it. so they're trying to bring that out now. anything where they might have offered him a benefit get anything they did for him, they want to have come out on direct during the direct examination but they're also add them by bringing that back to the sdny. it does open the door a little bit here because you've heard heard the political narrative at play that but there is no reason to have brought this case. that's

been the criticism against the good the da, alvin bragg, that elevating it from a misdemeanor to a felony the idea that the sdny team did not want to do this and are they trying in some ways to open a door strategically for the defense to be able to go go through i don't think they would do that. >> i mean, i think the political aspect, the case which hanging over everything that we're talking about here but they really don't have a place in the, in the evidence in the application of the law to the facts. i wouldn't think that they're trying to open a door for the defense to me, bringing up the sdny thing. i think let's them demonstrate that while they were willing to make a record of cohen's cooperation. they also were deferring to the prosecutors who had already prosecuted him.

so i think to me it more distances them from cohen a bit and puts him a little more at arm's length from the da's office, so they weren't willing to just do anything that he wanted there were some analysis to it as well and some distance an important point. i don't let me ask you him in for a talking about now in the courtroom about the seizure of cohen's phones, the return of them. what did he do to turn them back on? did he get a new phone and beyond, cohen said that he used one of his older cell phone that had been seized by the fbi in order to record a conversation with the bureau of prisons hoffinger you're asked at anytime that you alter or modify the audio recording of your conversation with mr. trump, which cohen says, no, ma'am. we are revisiting a topic that took place this yesterday and one of course that trump's defense team has been very clear that they want to try to create the impression that he altered that conversation, that it had been cut off mid-sentence and the why? yes. shai, you recall

honore michael cohen offered an explanation an incoming call it come in hoffinger gate at that point in time, some crops where do details about a call being incoming and being registered on the voting on the call records. because that that we're revisiting this part of it. what does that tell you about the concerns? the prosecution may have about how the credibility of himself is actually perceived yeah. >> i mean, it's clear that they're concerned about this and most likely what happened was they went back last night after the collision of yesterday's testimony, they reviewed it. they sat as a group and talked about everything that happened and everything that they needed to accomplish today. most likely, with the thought in their mind that the longest we may be able to stretch this out, we'll be through tuesday afternoon if we're able to go that far. so this may be our final chance to sort of get through and think through all the issues. and they're clearly concerned they want to make sure that they're air tight with respect to that

conversation that reported conversation and making it clear to the jurors that it was in no way altered. and as we know oh a lot of this hinges on cohen's testimony itself, his words itself. so while they have the chance, they want to have him say he didn't do anything to this recording. this is how it was when he reported it. >> thank you to both of you for being on and being good sports about the interruptions. i appreciate and go back to my panel here, paula. and of course, christian are here. now, cohen is talking about that he is not disputing the fact that he's talking about these charges, but that he doesn't think he should have been charged with the crimes themselves. so how is this going to play? you think about it, paulette, he is here so-called owning up to it, addressing the obvious elephant of his charges in the room, but also talking about whether he should've been charged at all that might that might undermine the willingness of the jurors to say, okay, i think this is a likable i, ii relatable,

informative narrator. >> yeah, it sounds like he's refusing to accept responsibility, which is i think what they're hoping to button up by saying luck. he pleaded guilty we'll see he did his time. >> it was hard parts of it were in solitary confinement now they're bringing up again, they're only bringing this up to get out ahead of defense attorneys who will surely break this and every other skeleton in his pause it out for the jury to see. he he sounds again like he is recounting the responsibility that he took for these alleged crimes. >> it comes across maybe a little bitter, not the best look before the jury, but certainly better to have susan hoffinger bring it up as supposed to. todd blanche, and of course, it just enough. this is exactly the narrative, but trump is speaking bad that he does not think he should be charged at all in this case. >> donald trump. donald, right? yeah. he does not think he should be charged at all this case that there was no wrongdoing. he says that all the legal experts have said that this is no case that there is no case which is inaccurate the let's but i do think that it's interesting that that's

how he would choose to answer this question at a time, we're clearly the prosecution is trying to prove a point and get out there ahead of something that the defense is going to bring me. just remember, as we've said all day and continue to say this is the defense's witness as well and hoffinger here we see, began asking cohen about testimony in the new york attorney general's civil fraud trial. blanche objected and now the attorneys are side barring trying to bring up that civil fraud trial, which was charged by reading recently ordered to pay an enormous sign obviously, trump's lawyers do not want him to do that. i seeking it from slurs or was one thing i just wanted to point out, which was kind of interesting get started on it with alina habba sending a note to one lawyer who sent it to another such we have a is not a lawyer in this case. she's just there as a guest. she is there. somebody who donald trump likes thinks that she's aggressive he likes the way that she talks, that is interesting that she's somehow participating in the legal defense here, passing notes around, but yet she was on the case. now, side-by-side about, right? yeah. exactly. and i'm

guessing that's where this is going because cohen and hurts a pretty testi exchanges during the quarter for some of that case they got into a bit of what i would describe it as a yelling match while he was on the stand. now, lina harvest approach to all of the criminal cases this year, excuse me, civil cases where she has represented trump had been a complete contrast to todd blanche trump right now is actually talking to one of his other defense attorneys while they're sidebar and i'll know that it'd beginning of the trial. he said he wanted to go to all the sidebars. he wanted to go to all the meetings with the lawyers and the judge has so far but he is not he's not done that at all. >> and remember the sidebars, there's a hush are on. the jury's not hearing any no idea what they talk about unless they come back and review it to you. so we also have a little but of a lapse in terms they updates, we're getting four colleagues inside the court right now. and by the way, when the attorneys are at the sidebar, a lot of times you're positioning yourself towards the jury to make sure that it's known that you're getting an advantage. you want to almost brain your face and have this conveyed that a metal but what's being said, your winning to give the impression

that jury that you didn't lose it that sidebar, that that's what you wanted to happen. they're all about posturing. >> so the objection here from the defense council has been withdrawn, and it does appear the prosecutors want to get into what happened when he he's on the stand and he was being cross-examined by alina habba, how that got testy. why that got testing out? some folks on our air have said they are confident that michael cohen is just going to do so well here because he has testified before congress has been through a lot, but i point to what happened in the civil case is a reminder that he can be easily agitated and easily undone by a certain type of question on the stand. again, todd blanche, the lead attorney here, and alina habba, two very different characters. but the fact is this is going to be a brutal cross-examination, so they're trying to get out ahead of as many things as they possibly can. >> but i'm just to see what prosecutors do with this testy exchange quickly though, what was triggering form. i'll be honest with. i don't remember the exact question, but that's how the line of question it was alito harb as approach approach throughout that trial. i mean, she was combative with the

judge as was her client. there were continued outburst. i mean, she was very much the cameras, everything grossen political, the attorney general also had remarks at the camera. it was a very contentious, unusual approach to it case by her on her client. and i will notice that the defendant and his current lawyers are taking a very different approach, but this cross-examination of michael cohen could really get under his skin and of course, j. we did see earlier that donald trump himself had passed a note to todd blanche, who is going to be the one we think to do the cross-examination of michael cohen the wedge, todd blanche took the note and began to nadh furiously apparently noting that he had acknowledged it and might actually follow the instruction wherever was said. >> all right. laura cohen is being asked to explain why he said in that trial that he lied when he pleaded guilty. that is the donald trump trial. the attorney general, letitia james, prosecuted donald trump for falsifying business records and inflating his assets and

downplaying his liabilities. he was fined hundreds of millions of dollars. michael cohen testified in that case he apparently said that he lied when he pleaded guilty. what i was saying is i was going to take responsibility because the underlying fact i never disputed. cohen says, but let's talk about his testimony in that trial because as apologist noted, elie honig lanny davis, when he was here, was talking about how he can do as he can be cross-examined. he went through it with this other trial, not to mention his other testimony before congress, but but there it was tense tell us exactly what happened between trump attorney alina habba and michael cohen in that earlier case. >> so the overarching question here is, has michael cohen really come clean? is he? really now a full truth teller? now if we go back to the new york civil fraud case, judge and gore, and this is earlier this year. michael cohen got on the stand and he was being asked about his guilty pleas

when he pled guilty in federal court to campaign finance, tax fraud, bank fraud, and lying to congress and michael cohen said in that case, he said, i lied when i played guilty wasn't actually guilty of bank fraud and tax fraud. and that led to a heated exchange between him and alina habba. there was also a heated exchange about whether donald trump had other specifically told michael cohen to lie to congress because at some points michael said, well, he told me to what other points michael say. well, he didn't tell me to buddy. let me know in his usual mob boss? >> and he's he's also talking right now about what laney davis said to us earlier, which was that i was quote, i was given 48 hours to accept their plea offer or they were going to file an 80 page indictment that included my wife and i was going to protect my wife. cohen said we heard lady davis, michael cohen's attorney former attorney talk about this? and so this is one of the issues here. he basically is saying he's trying to have his cake and eat it too. he pleaded guilty, but he didn't really

mean and he mainly did it because of his wife, right is there anything wrong with pleading guilty to something or not? >> yes. >> you're under oath and you're lying to a federal judge. >> in fact, just a month ago, michael asked to a different federal judge to let them out of supervised release, which is basically probation. and the federal stuff early. and that judge jesse furman said no because either you lied when you pled guilty or you live a couple of months ago under oath in the civil court. it gets mind. just want one quick thing when you plead guilty, it's not just i did i can one of the crime. it's do you understand every single right. we're relinquishing. do you understand that you did you commit this offense and you're under oath the whole time. it is not just a yes or no, but you know, there's a there's a provision and he's a lawyer. he would know this. it's rarely used, but it's called the alford plea and it comes from a case around 1970, were alford was given a hobson's choice. he didn't commit the crimes, but he was facing crazy time in jail. so they crafted this plea where they accepted the plea, but it was like plea

light. he didn't ask for an alford plea. he pled guilty let me read you what the judge said in that civil fraud case. this is judge engoron's written ruling, and this is actually sort of a perfect encapsulation of michael cohen, the judge found that michael collins testimony was significantly compromised. my his prior convictions by his prayer, guilty pleas, and that there were quote, seeming contradictions in what he michael cohen said at trial however, judge and goren ultimately concluded, quote, quote michael cohen told the truth, i'm not quite sure how you reconcile so hoffer susan hoffinger clarifies this is the prosecuting attorney. then when michael cohen said he lied to the federal judge when he pleaded guilty he was not saying he falsely pleaded guilty. the campaign finance crimes, tied to trump, he's basically suggesting he pleaded guilty, falsely, to other crimes, having to do with taxes or the like inside the court, alina habba who is the attorney for trump, who did this tough interrogation of him and during

cross-examination in that previous trump a business fraud trial is shaking her head. is there michael michael cohen says he had to sell his property except for primary residence and one secondary apartment. he says he was forced to sell his taxi medallions because a felon is not allowed to own them in new york or chicago. now he says about his work predominantly, it's media and entertainment. >> i just kinda wondering, is there a world in which a jury that is obviously not part of the legal system if they are throwing at you something where they say okay, we're going to let you off with this sentence that we're going to agree to, or you can take the risk and say no, i didn't do these things. i guess i can just see how like a person who felt under incredible pressure could see a plea deal that was presented and it happens, take the quick way out, literally and over and over where police put and prosecutors put people in a position where it's like if you can plead guilty to this, even though you insist

you didn't do it and do two months in prison, or we can take you to trial and you risk having ten years in prison literally happens every yet you're putting these people in a position if they didn't do it, that they're lying when they plead guilty not just seems like a resistor encourages people to justice what is colloquially called the trial penalty. you actually pay a penalty of sorts. it's a casual way of putting it by going to trouble. you can get a much, much higher sentence, than the few months that you would. >> and it is pure and they are punitive sense, make us go to trial. we are going to increase the charges and really take it out on you've done willing to black he wants it both ways. you won't ease saying, oh, it was forced to sell my medallions and my property, forced by what? forced by his own actions. it's like killing your parents and complaining that you're an orphan. i mean, he can have it both ways either guilty or he's not. yeah. by the way. defending michael cohen when i talk about that hobson's choice, but that does happen all the time. >> i agree. yes. so michael cohen michael cohen is now explaining his podcast. may a

culpa he says he frequently discusses trump on the podcast, which he describes as being about news of the day. he wrote two books his first is disloyal, which is a memoir he says i wrote that while i was in prison, while you're in prison time management is very important. it helps the time go by quicker. his second book is revenge. he says it's about the weaponization of the justice department against a critic of the president so moments ago, we have a telling split screen in this wild election year, donald trump inside this manhattan courtroom president biden busy doing the business of being president and not on trial. let's get right to cnn's arlette saenz, who was at the white house. arlette, we just saw present now, biden delivering remarks on his jobs agenda, talking about american investment, tell us more. >> yeah, jake, president biden, just moments ago, announced that his administration would be imposing about $18 in tariffs on chinese imports over the next two years, it comes as president biden is trying to show that he has taken a tough

and stance toward china at a time when former president donald trump and republicans have really tried to use that at this as a campaign wedge against him. it also comes, as you note that the president, former president trump is spending today in the new york city courtrooms, creating another split-screen as president and biden and his advisers are hoping to take advantage of some of this time to presented these split screens where biden is out of the campaign trail, out introducing measure that they believe will be key and important to american voters. and he talked a little bit about why american voters should care about these new tariffs that they are imposing against china. take a listen to what he had to say. >> for american workers and american business corporations can compete and win in the industries of the future because that's what this is about the fact is american workers these i cannot work and out-compete anyone. as long as the competition is fair. but for too long it hasn't been fair for years. the chinese government is port state monday to chinese companies across a

whole range of industries still aluminum, semiconductors, electric vehicles, solar panels. the industries of the future and even critical health equipment like gloves and masks china heavily subsidized all these products, pushing chinese county produce far more than the rest of the world can absorb then dumping the excess products onto the market and unfairly low prices driving other manufacturers around the world out of business so president biden, trying to stress that his focus is on boosting american manufacturing and industry is like clean energy and semiconductors. >> now, i will note that these new tariffs are coming after the administration had done a review of some trump-era tariffs, when former president trump had enacted about 300 billion dollars and tariffs on chinese imports during his administration. so far the biden administration largely has kept a lot of those in place, even as biden had criticized some of them back in 2020. but the ultimate hope with announcements like this is that this could potentially play with working class voters in states like pennsylvania and michigan states that would be

key for biden or trump because they both pursue the presidency in november. >> all right. are let science, thanks so much. so that's a president biden announcing. he's raising tariffs on an array of chinese imports, which include batteries and semiconductor, solar cells, electric vehicles very interesting stuff in kasie hunt, we shouldn't know. there are obviously huge differences between donald trump and joe biden i would say that one place that they overlap a lot has to do with tariffs on china. and yes, there are disagreements there. i'm not saying it's the exact same policy but there are a lot of overlaps and there's some ways in which this set of tariffs is a little bit trumpian. actually, biden seems to be a little bit less. i mean, you can sense the emotion with trump, with some of it. i mean, going after french wines in particular, and some other ways like he used them in this very specific way. but look, china is definitely key issue in the presidential campaign and it's

going to be an issue and senate and congressional campaigns as well. it's a place where republicans feel like they often have some of the higher ground. and i think you can see the biden administration trying to take some of that here. the reality is chinese electric vehicles are a major issue for the american auto industry as they try to shift because they are so inexpensive. i mean, they sell a version of this car that is at the heart of this for $10,000, which is not what evs cost here. and of course, the cost of evs is a primary roadblock to adoption of the technology here. all right, let's go back to the trial because it's obviously still going on what has been going on in the last few months? >> minutes. >> michael cohen talked about her on february 2021, he invited stormy daniel's on his podcast. >> may a culpa and he apologized to her. it was the first time that ever spoken. the jury is shown a post on donald trump's social media site truth social from march 15, 2023, in which trump references a convicted liar and felon. cohen says this is the

time of his testimony before the grand jury in that case. in the business fraud case, susan often zero. the prosecutor asks michael cohen if there came a time when it became aware of trump had been posting negative comments about him on truth. social, cohen says, i was he says it in a whisper, then it clears his throat, says again, i was cohen confirms that trump brought a lawsuit against him against michael cohen for half $1 billion. he eventually dropped it is not uncommon for mr. trump's more frivolous lawsuits. cohen has asked if he regrets his past association with trump. cut michael cohen said, i regret doing things for him that i should not have lying, bullying people in order to effectuate a goal. i don't regret working with trump organization as i expressed before, some very interesting gray times. >> but to keep the loyalty and to do the things that he had asked me to do. >> i violated my moral compass and i suffered the penalty as has my family, susan orphans, your says she has no further

questions. so they're going to break for lunch right now. the court and the cross-examination will begin todd blanche, we believe is going to do that that is trump's one of trump's attorneys in this case. that cross-examination will begin after lunch and let me ask the three lawyers on our panel, if you were todd blanche, how would you start your cross-examination of michael cohen after launch? >> there's so many ways to start. now, that's why one thing, i mean, i think you go through every single thing he admitted to over the course of this time and methodically walk through them one-by-one, or the lives you mean all the lies and you should and confront him with them directly. >> and i think it will not take much to get under the witnesses skin and really just tried to get a rise out of him and make the jury not liking. >> it's the very idea that he says that this violated his moral compass, suggests that he believes he has a moral compass and that means that he can be offended. yes. the first thing i would do is list off

everyone. he's lied to. you, lied to congress, didn't you? yes, i did. you'd like to the irs. you'll add to your bank, you lie to your personal banker, luck hi to your wife, lied to the fec, right? i mean, you can keep on going and i would list 20 different people at you like to the media, like to stormy daniels, he lied to keith davidson. you lied to david pecker. you lie i mean, you run lied to write it all it. prosecution's witnesses. i would just do as many of those as i can tick off probably a dozen or two dozen. the other thing. and by the way, i think by-and-large, this was a very strong and effective direct examination for prosecutors. it should be just star witness. >> one thing that i think they may wish they had done a little more is front michael cohen's personal hatred. >> let's just call it what it is hatred for donald trump. they referenced michael cohen's books and podcasts, but lucky, leave it to the defense to go through all the gory specifics, but i would have asked him isn't it a fact that you disliked donald trump right now when michael kuilan probably would've said, yeah, i hate the guy now, but let let the jury hear it on the prosecution's case because then it'll hit less hard when the defense now yeah, it is the

problem jacobs is moral compass doesn't tend to true north. it's a shaky kind of fluid type thing this guy i think eliot elly, make great points on how to attack it, but i think what this guy, if it was me, it will be the old mike tyson, everybody's got a plan to ligand punched in the face. i think he just narrow whacking with the worst thing you come up with. a joe oldham and then spend the next day and a half or two days just methodically going through all the lies and the lies upon life. i mean, unlike mr. dean who we spoke about earlier, he had some exposure criminally, never pled guilty to perjury, never lie that we know of. and it was limited to his role in the white house. that's how colin's trying to sell it here. this guy is in the whole of fame for liars. if there was an olympics of liars, it'd be on the top of this. will the gold medal. >> so as i think you noted, john henry wig more once said that cross-examination is the greatest legal engine ever

invented for the discovery of the truth. are you the one that the quoted that if i do like that, yeah. so if if not, i'm sure it's a needle pointed on your on your pellet. >> but i think that there is the idea that cross-examination , whether you're the prosecution or the defense, is where the tough questions come. >> this is this is what we do for a living and the reporters on this a panel with a tough questions come, where you get to the truth and so this has been the more friendly version of michael cohen's truth. and now we're going to have the less, the less friendly. >> there's no question. the first thing we're going to wonder is can they rattled him? he has been through trial prep. he has been through murder boarding. they've already gone through what they expect to happen on cross the jury will notice if his tone and demeanor even lenny davis acknowledged that when he sat behind him in that congressional testimony, what he was worried about was that cohen was it's gonna get mad. >> that's a lot maybe was worried that he was going to get angry, lose his temper,